dongle said:
Hang on, I'm not getting you at all here Antiphon.
Antiphon said:
dongle said:
I recognize your name as a modder. Don't let the negative and unproductive people get you down. Oblivion is going to be very much worth playing and modding. I hope you come along for the ride.
Let's back up a minute. Go back to VD's post that started this thread. A writer for a -very- respectable tech publication posts a blog entry about his experience playing Oblivion at the press preview tour. Verdict; Kinda cool, a bit choppy, not really next-gen. Hardly news.
Internet retard mayhem breaks out. Just read those comments. Oblivion fans accuse him of; Being unfit for his profession (The author writes books on video games) Not playing for 200 hours (Bethesda only -let- him play a few hours, there are no beta copies being circulated to reviewers) Down to even accusing him of outright lying about the fact that he played the game at all, and fabricating the whole post just to "get back" at Bethesda (The author never played a TES game in his life)
These are the people getting me down.
I'm supposed to spend hours and hours of my free time creating content and supporting it for this current crop of "fans"? The official forums used to have a decent enough signal to noise ratio that I could hang out there. Now I can't even read the list of threads without wincing. And I'm supposed to wade in there hip-deep and sing the holy praises, why exactly again?
For my part, I did not participate in that thread at ESF. People are entitled to their opinion as far as I'm concerned. Generally it's a good idea to preface an opinion with "I believe" or "I think" or something similar to signal it's an opinion. I try hard to remember to do so, but I forgot to when I said "Oblivion is going to be very much worth playing and modding." That was merely my opinion based on what I've read and how I perceived the value of Morrowind. It is fair play to challenge someone when they state an opinion as fact.
The kids at ESF clearly go overboard. I would suggest they need guidance, but there is so many of them it looks hopeless. It is a sad fact that for many kids the console is their babysitter and the Internet their emotional release. Ok, I see evidence that is a fact.
Your continued participation in modding and helping at the ESF would be most helpful in their guidance. You are certainly under no obligation to do so. I thank you for what you have done already.
dongle said:
Antiphon said:
Kamaz said:
What have you produced that has improved the quality of my life in any way at all?
Fucking high and mighty attitude of you to require that of a forum poster.
Based on my respect for you as a modder and a productive member of the community, I've reexamined my response and seen I've been entirely unfair to Kamaz. If I had been here longer I would have known he is a productive member here. As it was, I thought I saw behavior similar to the ESF kids in his post. I fired off a reply without any kind of check of his past posts. I should know better than that.
Kamaz, I hope you can except my apology for hastily assuming you are not a valuable member of this community.
As a self professed promoter of positive change, I would be remiss if I did recognize that change sometimes requires a long look in the mirror.
When I saw Kamaz's post, I focused on seizing an opportunity to make a point and not enough on whether it was an appropriate time to do so. There is also a bad habit I have of trying to condense a complex point down to a one liner.
The main point was that economic theory suggests we can look at all human interaction as being based on the profit motive. This does not always mean money. We can look at forum participation as a way to earn a "profit" of information or knowledge. Even altruistic behaviors can be considered as earning the "profit" of feeling good about oneself.
A fair trade is one in which both parties feel they have profited by the exchange. When I buy a game, I'm expecting the game to be worth more to me than the dollars I spent.
Then there is the expectation of profit based on a previous exchange. I believe the TES fanboy kids are expecting to profit considerably in their purchase of Oblivion, but they are unable to separate the emotion of the excitement of the expected profit from any logical reason to expect it and all too often, out pours BS in defense of, primarily, what they feel.
For my part, I will weigh what I hear from reviewers against or with what I hear from and expect from Bethesda. What I expect from Bethesda is very high indeed, but the balance has been tipped a bit by the review in discussion of this thread.
(Please note my attempt to steer this back on topic
)
dongle said:
Maybe not you specifically, but I spent plenty of time and effort adding to and promoting Morrowind. Google "morrowind" and my site comes up as the third individual's website result. This is after being defunct for over a year. Will you deign to read my comments?
Antiphon said:
Is it too much effort for you to realize you have a way to change market demand? Of course it's much easier to just bitch and moan without actually doing anything constructive and this does not change market demand in any way noticeable.
dongle said:
Bethesda isn't marketing to me, anyway. The amount of support announced for modders has been virtually nil. We've even seen increasing hostility and arrogance towards modders. They're quick to brag about us, and assume we'll be there as enthusiastic as ever, but do nothing to help. This is most likely down to them opening a branch to sell mods themselves. Their VP of marketing personally blew me off when I voiced some modder related concerns.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about being left out of their marketing focus. I understand I don't represent a profitable demographic for them, and it's fine that they want to focus elsewhere.
Fact is tho, they are not designing a game that'll appeal to me all that much. Yet you say it's only right and proper that I should come over to the warm and creamy side of the force and spend my time improving all it's faults. If I don't I'm worthless. Why is that exactly?
And furthermore, why should I pony up $60 for this privilege?
I was unaware of many of your concerns and they are duly noted.
Well this is going to take some explaining.
It looks to me you have four choices if you want Codex influenced games:
1) Make your own game. Probably the hardest, but potentially most rewarding.
2) Assuming Bethesda is the 800lb gorilla in the "close to RPG" game business, learn to work within the limits of the system and with the available tools to make mods that may affect future games. It seems obvious to me they have incorporated many Morrowind mods into Oblivion.
You have produced quite a lot already and I'll bet they are using something of yours. Maybe you inspired actual combat in the arena? I'll bet there is something in Oblivion like glass cases and/or doors, functional lighthouses and/or windmills or any number of things from the many mods or resources you've made.
Making great mods can result in being hired by Bethesda which has apparently happened with 2 or 3 Morrowind modders. Change from within becomes possible. I'm curious if they have at least asked you to send in a resume. If you have applied and have sufficient education and were not hired, this would be pretty damning of Bethesda. You have been one of the most prolific modders and most helpful and positive at the ES forums as far back as I can search.
If you choose this route I don't think it would be as hard as making your own game, but at times may be much harder to swallow. One has to understand the corporate mindset.
Monetary gain is very important in the corporate world. Businesses must make monetary profit to survive. However, management often seeks and expects other types of personal profit. I've seen meetings where it was more important for egos to battle than to actually seek creative solutions to problems.
Too often top management views a business as their own personal vehicle for fame, glory and success. They have the power to hire or fire personnel based on how effective they may be toward their personal goals and then make it appear a wise choice for the benefit of the company.
Unless you are absolutely irreplaceable to a company, you will seek to please the boss and make him/her look good or be out on the street. Human Resources will not hire anyone who they have any evidence of that might not, first of all, please the boss, and secondly, be anything other than 100% positive about the company.
My experience is in manufacturing and I have no idea how things work at Bethesda. If it's anything like what I've seen, I can only imagine the crap the devs have had to eat and somehow keep smiles on their faces while trying to avoid Prozac. MSFD and the other devs that posted here may very well be champions of Codex values in RPGs, but simply have to survive to fight another day.
My experiences in businesses that were struggling to keep market share may have jaded me, but there is another possibility. Almost all business must innovate or the competition will. A truly innovative company will adopt management philosophies that encourage creativity.
Top management must subdue their own egos to encourage the free exchange of ideas. True team problem solving is encouraged, instead of battling egos, and is supposed to be fun and rewarding. Benefit packages are designed with the belief it's far better to keep a good employee than to train a new one. There is more that I've learned about, but have never had the chance to experience.
If you think Bethesda is an innovative company, whether you believe in the innovation or not, it could very well be an indication they are a great company to work for. One would still need a positive attitude to be an attractive candidate however.
3) Oh yea, almost forget, there is a third choice. Criticize and complain to the game companies. Try to get as many people as you can to join you. Enough of the customers complaining can get companies to change. I suppose the Codex has some power with reviews and such, positive or negative. I have no idea how much.
In the case of Oblivion, the game is done, nothing more can be changed at this point. There doesn't seem to be enough unhappy people to make a difference anyway. I'm sure they are quite aware they can't please all of the people all of the time.
I don't particularly care for this choice when it's done in a hateful manner. Companies should be open to constructive criticism however.
4) Do nothing. Learn to accept and appreciate what you do have and learn not to worry or care about what you don't have and can not change. This is more of a survival strategy. I can do this very well because I had to. Apathy is a viable life style choice.
There may be more choices, but I think these are the main ones.
dongle said:
Antiphon said:
It would be wise, I believe, to recognize that confrontational negative and pessimistic posts are counterproductive and are obviously and shallowly self-serving.
See, now you're totally losing me.
You come in here, call everyone's opinions worthless unless they exhibit a "positive proactive attitude" to you, and generally come over all haughty to anyone who dares post a critical opinion of your baby? If that's not "confrontational, negative, and self serving" what is?
To me? I don't think I've said that, but rather it's more productive to have a positive attitude in general.
dongle said:
I've got news for you. I've learned more about game design in a couple months here than I have in years on the TES forums. Folks speak their mind here, and some of the most well considered arguments I've ever read on the 'net are the result. I'm intimidated to jump in half the time, the discussion is so complex. This is far, far, more productive than demanding universal praise for a game "just 'cuz, and if you don't you're a big meanie". That will never get you anywhere here.
Antiphon said:
Hang on, it will get better.
So, we should all give Bethesda undying support, regardless of any misgivings, because TES:V, or TES:VI, just might be everything we could want?
Right. Have fun with that. . . .
I have also said I've learned a lot here. I'm all for speaking ones mind within reason. There is a point were the writer loses credibility if writing for a particular goal.
Is there a goal of the Codex beyond reviews and discussion?
You can be as negative as you want. Negativism cost me a lot.
You can point out all your misgivings about Bethesda and I'll weigh them against my expected value of Oblivion. I hope your not offended if I buy it.
You can be as pessimistic as you want. Pessimism cost me a lot.
You have freedom. You have choices. The wonderful thing about freedom is when free people choose to do great things. I'd choose to help steer gaming the way I think is best if I have that opportunity. If I don't, I'd choose not to worry about it at all.
