Preview Oblivion preview & shitstorm at Wired Blog

[Antiphon]

It does no good criticizing children for being what they are. Children go through the fast twitch stage first then start developing deeper cognitive functions.

Are you mad? You'll find that children develop their cognitive functions at a furious rate. They pay attention to bloody everything. They may lack knowledge and discernment, but their cognitive functions are much more alive than ours.

Not that I understand what any of it is to do with Oblivion, but whatever point you were making, this is absoloute bollocks.

I don't believe I said anything about rate of learning, but when. No argument about their cognitive functions being more alive than ours.

My son appeared to learn movement, eye-hand coordination and spatial relationships long before he learned to speak.

It has been a while since psyc class. I'll consider there is a point somewhere in that vehement objection.

 

[Antiphon]

It does no good criticizing children for being what they are. Children go through the fast twitch stage first then start developing deeper cognitive functions.

Are you mad? You'll find that children develop their cognitive functions at a furious rate. They pay attention to bloody everything. They may lack knowledge and discernment, but their cognitive functions are much more alive than ours.

Not that I understand what any of it is to do with Oblivion, but whatever point you were making, this is absoloute bollocks.

I completely agree with you, Dorrie. Antiphon got that cute little theory that doesn't make any sense, and he uses it to defend crappy games.

If I let you win this argument, will you agree the ESF kids can learn to enjoy the more cognitive aspects of RPGs as much, maybe more, than you and that they just need guidance?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sure, some of them are down because of the design. I don't think you can say there aren't some down because of the emotional influence of others.

Considering that the "emotional influence" of TES forums beats us 1000:1, I doubt that that's the case. I've seen many people who did a lot for MW, like Sabergirl, for example, getting more and more frustrated with every new confirmed info, and then and only then starting to "drift down", arriving to the same conclusions we did earlier.

I have apologized to Kamaz, but I do believe the economic way of looking at things is valid.

I disagree, but that's subjective.

Well, my eager-to-butt-rape-a-developer friend, if you were familiar with what it sometimes takes to survive in the corporate world

I'm more than aware of what it takes to survive in the corporate world. My job title is Vice-President, Sales & Marketing. I was invited to save a company from being taken over, which I did.

you'd be aware of the possibility that MSFD just may be fighting for you and the Codex values.

By making idiotic statements that don't make any sense? Steve, if you are reading it, you can do much better. Knee jerk reactions are lame.

1) The reviewer did NOT write the game off
2) The reviewer complained mostly about loading time and slow downs - the area where a few hours can paint an accurate picture of a game's state.

I thought that you would understand at least that much, considering your techno fetish, but I guess I overestimated your logical abilities.

I've weighed what the reviewer said against my expected value of Oblivion based on my experience with Morrowind. It tipped the scales a bit, but probably won't stop me from buying it.

You missed the point. It was not a suggestion for you not to like/buy the game, but an explanation of why MSFD's response was stupid.

I sense this is a painful subject for you. I won't rub any more salt in your wound.

Painful? lol. Anyway, let's not use any excuses, so feel free to rub as much salt in as you have.

Sure. They tried, it didn't work for both PC and console. Can't have one group of users mad that the other got more.

You are right. I guess now you can make/download mods (of the non-official variety) on XBOX. Awesome!

I guess it's hard for you to accept other people can have different values?

Not really. You like shooters? Crazy about them physics? Think that gameplay is optional? Be my fucking guest, but this is RPG Codex, we discuss RPG elements, we evaluate games as RPGs, so your point of view, while great, awesome, and interesting to someone, I'm sure, is out of fucking place here. For anything else there is the General Forum.

I do expect there to be a reasonably fun game to play. I will be happier if there are more of the deeper RPG elements included that I've learned about here. If not, I will simply not worry about it or possibly start modding to change it.

Go nuts. There is a good reason why many good and experienced modders are pissed off though, no?

 

[Vault Dweller]

... will you agree the ESF kids can learn to enjoy the more cognitive aspects of RPGs as much, maybe more, than you and that they just need guidance?

Not that simple. There are plenty of people who don't like true RPGs that are about skills, and reading, and choosing, and thinking; and honestly, there is nothing wrong with that. It's not my mission on Earth to make sure that every Halo playing reta...err, I meant person, can learn to enjoy an RPG or at least use capital letters and form a fucking argument.

The problem isn't the people, the problem is the company that decided to fuck the PC fanbase and the series, and make a simplified action game aimed at a different target group.

 

[DorrieB]

My son appeared to learn movement, eye-hand coordination and spatial relationships long before he learned to speak.

It has been a while since psyc class. I'll consider there is a point somewhere in that vehement objection.

Sure not all children are the same, but wouldn't your little boy have started making noises when he was about 4 months old? And putting phonemes together at about 10 months? First word soon after? Again, ALL the cognitive functions (including attention to movement and spatial relationships) are being developed like mad by any baby from day one.

And if it's been a while since psych class, how is it that you have no problem using it to make an argument, even though it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? It makes whatever else you have to say seem dodgy.

And you still haven't explained what you're on about, unless you mean that Oblivion is aimed at children under one year old.

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Who needs salt?

 

[Antiphon]

My son appeared to learn movement, eye-hand coordination and spatial relationships long before he learned to speak.

It has been a while since psyc class. I'll consider there is a point somewhere in that vehement objection.

Sure not all children are the same, but wouldn't your little boy have started making noises when he was about 4 months old? And putting phonemes together at about 10 months? First word soon after? Again, ALL the cognitive functions (including attention to movement and spatial relationships) are being developed like mad by any baby from day one.

And if it's been a while since psych class, how is it that you have no problem using it to make an argument, even though it's clear you have no idea what you're talking about? It makes whatever else you have to say seem dodgy.

And you still haven't explained what you're on about, unless you mean that Oblivion is aimed at children under one year old.

I'm not arguing about the speed a child learns at. I mentioned that psych class was long ago to admit I may be fuzzy about it. Then I said I would consider your argument.

It may be that motor skills are learned apparently sooner because they are the ones practiced and used sooner. It may be possible that a six year old can learn chess just as easy as learning a fast twitch video games, but they may have needed to exercise and develop that part of the brain as soon as they started moving and grabbing things. I will more or less conceded the point to you even though you did not reply to exactly what I said, but I get what your saying anyway.

 

[DorrieB]

It may be possible that a six year old can learn chess just as easy as learning a fast twitch video games, but...

But nothing, they can and they do. It really, really pisses me off when people treat children as if they were retarded. Children will work with whatever you give them, and if you insist on treating them as if they were dumb and flighty, they will simply grow up dumb and flighty. They will NOT magically develop attention spans and cleverness upon their eighteenth birthday. I've had loud arguments about this and it's cost me at least one job, so it's fair to say I've given it some thought, right?

Do not *ever* justify crappiness by saying it's for children, as if children counted for less, or their standards should be lower. That's all. Sorry if I've misunderstood you, but you haven't explained yourself very well, and this is what you seem to be saying. Proceed with your defense of Oblivion and Bethesda, or whatever, but catch on to yourself and leave the children well out of it.

 

[Antiphon]

It may be possible that a six year old can learn chess just as easy as learning a fast twitch video games, but...

But nothing, they can and they do. It really, really pisses me off when people treat children as if they were retarded. Children will work with whatever you give them, and if you insist on treating them as if they were dumb and flighty, they will simply grow up dumb and flighty. They will NOT magically develop attention spans and cleverness upon their eighteenth birthday. I've had loud arguments about this and it's cost me at least one job, so it's fair to say I've given it some thought, right?

Do not *ever* justify crappiness by saying it's for children, as if children counted for less, or their standards should be lower. That's all. Sorry if I've misunderstood you, but you haven't explained yourself very well, and this is what you seem to be saying. Proceed with your defense of Oblivion and Bethesda, or whatever, but catch on to yourself and leave the children well out of it.

I concede already. You've made me realize I've had a culturally supported bias that made me think my child couldn't learn chess at 6 years old.

You do understand the Codex believes in insulting children at ESF? Not my belief, but it's clear many here do believe it by their actions.

It is my position the Codex should help guide the ESF kids to greater understanding and appreciation of all the finer elements of RPGs.

It's appears, so far, they are not at all interested.

 

[LlamaGod]

They're stupid kids.

They are kids, yes and they may not have yet had a full education yes, but the fact remains that as of this moment they are stupid and stupid people need to be beaten with a cane.

Especially ones that are trying to hold the majority of my favorite hobby.

 

[bryce777]

They're stupid kids.

They are kids, yes and they may not have yet had a full education yes, but the fact remains that as of this moment they are stupid and stupid people need to be beaten with a cane.

Especially ones that are trying to hold the majority of my favorite hobby.

Exactly. They will grow into stupid adults. Why wait?

 

[One Wolf]

If I let you win this argument, will you agree the ESF kids can learn to enjoy the more cognitive aspects of RPGs as much, maybe more, than you and that they just need guidance?

i think its possible, it just seems that the companies responible for producing and advertising rpg's have shifted focus in the direction of "more action, less complexity" which naturally proves much less mentally stimulating than some older rpgs. until the market begins to demand true rpgs, there is very little incentive for major companies to produce "quality" rpgs, and thus, that market sector remains unexposed.

the first complex rpg i ever played was bg 2 SOA, and i was completely overwhelmed when first i played, and was constantly calling a friend who used to play D&D when he was a kid. jesus, i didn't even kno what the fuck a hit die was. after that initial exposure, it was all over, i couldn't stand anything less. fallout 2 was next, and that proved even more addictive, due to the adult themes and dialogue, not the mention that my character acutally became what i envisioned, something that was somewhat lacking in bg2.

By making idiotic statements that don't make any sense? Steve, if you are reading it, you can do much better. Knee jerk reactions are lame.

i think he just misspoke, he usually seems like a pretty reasonable guy, and cleary enjoys the codex for obvious reasons. that was not the slickest thing to write, but hey, we all do dumbass shit from time to time.

You do understand the Codex believes in insulting children at ESF? Not my belief, but it's clear many here do believe it by their actions.

its not that they are children, its that they are stupid. age has nothing to do with it.

 

[Antiphon]

They're stupid kids.

They are kids, yes and they may not have yet had a full education yes, but the fact remains that as of this moment they are stupid and stupid people need to be beaten with a cane.

Especially ones that are trying to hold the majority of my favorite hobby.

Exactly. They will grow into stupid adults. Why wait?

And the basis of this belief is?

 

[Drakron]

The population of the United States of America.

 

[HardCode]

The population of the United States of America.

Hey, I'm an American mofo, and what I'll say to you is ... it's our fault for the state of shit games these days. The ADHD excuse. Degeneration-X.

 

[Antiphon]

<snip>
i think its possible, it just seems that the companies responible for producing and advertising rpg's have shifted focus in the direction of "more action, less complexity" which naturally proves much less mentally stimulating than some older rpgs. until the market begins to demand true rpgs, there is very little incentive for major companies to produce "quality" rpgs, and thus, that market sector remains unexposed..

<snip>

I've suggested previously that this may just be a phase the industry and consumers are going though right now. Have to play with the new tech toys.

Then again, once there was only books then radio, TV, Atari...

Was the average child 200 years ago smarter than today's...I wonder.

<snip>
its not that they are children, its that they are stupid. age has nothing to do with it.

Well to me, it's not that they are stupid, it's that they are children.

I guess that it's all based on my belief that individuals and society should make an effort to allow children to grow and develop. Once they're adults...fine, they're on their own.

 

[Antiphon]

The population of the United States of America.

That you've learned about by watching TV?

 

[Seboss]

Le temps ne fait rien à l'affaire
Quand on est/naît con, on est con...

Err, nevermind.

 

[One Wolf]

they are children

all of them?

 

[Antiphon]

they are children

all of them?

Most are at ESF Oblivion. I saw a poll that showed the average age is something like 12 - 16 at the Oblivion forum.

 

[Levski 1912]

And now for something completely different!

ARRRR! Where's my ticket to hell, window seat dammit!