Review Oblivion spooge at GameSpot(Xbox360 version)

[Pegultagol]

Well, I guess Greg was being rather relative in terms of how the 360 did not have any RPG let alone a high profile one. And there is really no other RPGs quite like Oblivion out there... I do expect the PC version to have a lower score, as if the expectations are loftier. And due to some of the... distinct console conventions adopted.

 

[bossjimbob]

It's kind of funny, they praise the AI for things like people calling guards when you're seen stealing, which is something that you should really <b>expect</b> to happen in any game that has the concept of stealing and ownership, but then let things like that slide when they score the game? Wasn't the AI the huge hyping point of this game?

A legitimate complaint for sure, but what other games have crafted AI that has come anywhere close to the level of detail that Oblivion offers? I can think of none. That's why I take a lot of these criticisms with a grain of salt. No game is perfect when placed under the microscope, so reviewers tend to gloss over the defects when a title is so strong in its other aspects.

Like others here have mentioned, perhaps it's the fact that Oblivion is widely regarded as a stellar multi-genre game in many respects, though when compared to traditional RPGs it lacks the depth that the hardcore fanbase expects.

 

[Twinfalls]

You're not missing much. There's no reason to play Gothic 1 once you've played G2. G2 fixes most of Gothic's problems, and then ratchets its badassness up a dozen notches.

The only cool thing about Gothic 1 is just that feeling once you're flung into the colony. You look around and see all this stuff (the abandoned mines, dead bodies etc) and it just gives off that great atmoshpere.

Other than that, it just becomes a linear hackfest complete with lever and jumping puzzles.

What a load of crap. Gothic 1 is a better game in many ways - the storyline is better (as admitted by Piranha Bytes), the graphics are more expressionistic and moody, and it has that magnificent first episode where you are complete dirt, and treated as such, in the prison camp, and must work your way up in rep and influence. (Or you can run off to join the other two camps, both of which are cool).

Gothic ONE already had in place better NPC reactivity than Oblivion. NPCs in Gothic ONE would beat the shit out of you if you trespassed into their homes, unlike Oblivion, where they stand there and let you waltz around in the middle of the night (only you don't think it is since the windows are mysteriously letting in light), as well as demand you put your weapon down, and do something about it if you don't.

Gothic ONE had an arena, with fights and betting and all that.

Gothic ONE has full dialogue trees, despite having fully voiced dialogue.

It is only the last part of the game which is the dungeon crawl - and what's so fucking wrong with a good dungeon crawl all of a sudden?

 

[Brother None]

9.3
9.6
9.5
10
9.5
10

Oh no!

Numbers!

I am undone!

 

[Naked_Lunch]

What a load of crap. Gothic 1 is a better game in many ways - the storyline is better (as admitted by Piranha Bytes), the graphics are more expressionistic and moody, and it has that magnificent first episode where you are complete dirt, and treated as such, in the prison camp, and must work your way up in rep and influence. (Or you can run off to join the other two camps, both of which are cool).

The first part was indeed quite cool, but it doesn't quite compensate for the rest of the game.

The storylines were about the same, I think. It's not until the end of the second one when things start to get really interesting (storywise, that is. The endgame of G2 was also quite shit).

Gothic ONE already had in place better NPC reactivity than Oblivion. NPCs in Gothic ONE would beat the shit out of you if you trespassed into their homes, unlike Oblivion, where they stand there and let you waltz around in the middle of the night (only you don't think it is since the windows are mysteriously letting in light), as well as demand you put your weapon down, and do something about it if you don't.

Hey hey, I was never comparing the game to Oblivion.

And besides, Gothic 2 did those better and added more to it.

It is only the last part of the game which is the dungeon crawl - and what's so fucking wrong with a good dungeon crawl all of a sudden?

Well, for one thing it wasn't a very good dungeon crawl and secondly, the beginning of the game makes it out like the entire game is this cool, reactive social RPG and then it slaps you in the face with the linearity.

Gothic 2 is better than Gothic in almost every concieveable way. Gothic had some neat shit in the beginning, but then it fell off track. Gothic 2 on the other hand, even without the expansion, is consistent all the way through until the last half-hour.

 

[Twinfalls]

No. You are wrong. When you said this:

You're not missing much. There's no reason to play Gothic 1 once you've played G2.

You were wrong. He would be missing much. There's a good number of reasons to play G1.

G2 fixes most of Gothic's problems, and then ratchets its badassness up a dozen notches.

What were the problems fixed? Mostly things were refined, like combat, graphics. A few different NPC animations were added, but overall, it's much more about different content than changing the gameplay.

The only cool thing about Gothic 1 is just that feeling once you're flung into the colony.

No, wrong. That is not the 'only cool thing about Gothic 1'.

To name but a few things one would miss if one just played the sequel only:

- The first episode, and the second episode was also cool, even if it was similar across camp choice.

- One of the coolest, most believably constructed dungeons in gaming - the vertiginous Old Mine.

- The extremely cool Sleeper camp, with its kooky followers and atmosphere.

- The central plot mechanic - escaping from the prison - being more compelling than G2's 'go get the bad guy'.

- The cool barrier effect in the sky and when there were storms.

- Non-combat dealing with Ur-Shak and the Orcs once you get the 'ambassador' amulet.

Gothic 2 is better than Gothic in almost every concieveable way.

One may think this (I clearly do not), but it's a very different thing to saying 'Gothic 1 has nothing to offer if you play number 2'.

 

[TotS]

- Non-combat dealing with Ur-Shak and the Orcs once you get the 'ambassador' amulet.

Amulet? Wasn't it the "This is my diplomacy club. If you don't want me to crack your skull with it, stay the hell out of my way" orcish standard? I loved it! :D

 

[Naked_Lunch]

You were wrong. He would be missing much. There's a good number of reasons to play G1.

Alright, obviously we're different and have different tastes. You apparently like to go visit old corpses and feel them up. That's fine. I, on the other hand, don't see a reason to play Gothic past the first bits besides just getting background info (which you end up getting anyway in G2). Though I'll admit Diego was a helluva cooler in the first game then in the second.

What were the problems fixed? Mostly things were refined, like combat, graphics. A few different NPC animations were added, but overall, it's much more about different content than changing the gameplay.

They fixed the problem of becoming a linear dungeon crawl after a couple of hours of sweet sweet freedom. I think that counts for something.

- The central plot mechanic - escaping from the prison - being more compelling than G2's 'go get the bad guy'.

It becomes "Go Get The Bad Guy" though. If the game stayed on course and was all about trying to escape and being able to do it in different ways with different consequences, well, then that would be pretty kickass.

- The cool barrier effect in the sky and when there were storms.

Yeah, I'll totally buy the game to check out those awesome sky effects.

I could argue day and night with you about this, but what would be the point?

 

[Twinfalls]

Amulet? Wasn't it the "This is my diplomacy club. If you don't want me to crack your skull with it, stay the hell out of my way" orcish standard? I loved it! :D

Wasn't it some kind of Totem that granted you amnesty? It's been a while.

You apparently like to go visit old corpses and feel them up. That's fine. I, on the other hand, don't see a reason to play Gothic past the first bits besides just getting background info (which you end up getting anyway in G2).

What is with you fucking kids these days and your 'latest and gratest only' fetish?

They fixed the problem of becoming a linear dungeon crawl after a couple of hours of sweet sweet freedom.

'a couple of hours'?!?

Bullshit.

Yeah, I'll totally buy the game to check out those awesome sky effects.

Yeah, it's that in isolation. Short attention span, too?

I could argue day and night with you about this, but what would be the point?

There is none, given you are unable to either explain or provide examples your key argument - that G1 had all these flaws which G2 'fixed', and that G1 is somehow redundant.

 

[TotS]

Amulet? Wasn't it the "This is my diplomacy club. If you don't want me to crack your skull with it, stay the hell out of my way" orcish standard? I loved it! :D

Wasn't it some kind of Totem that granted you amnesty? It's been a while.

Yup, the thing Ur-Shak crafted for you. It was a weapon that you actualy had to unsheathe in cotrast to every other occasion in the game, where the NPCs reacted hostile to drawn weapons.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

There is none, given you are unable to either explain or provide examples your key argument - that G1 had all these flaws which G2 'fixed', and that G1 is somehow redundant.

I did. Let me reiterate them.
Gothic 2 has better content. There are more quests with multiple solutions, your actions have a larger impact on the gameworld. There is more of everything. The world was more open, there was more to do and see. The quests were better designed, and I like the improved journal and character system. Gothic 2 also did not have Mud.

It's the same thing with Space Rangers: Why play Space Rangers 1 when Space Rangers 2 has everything and more, besides the backstory (which you can eventually get in the game anyway)?

There I'm done. Now fuck off.

 

[Twinfalls]

There is none, given you are unable to either explain or provide examples your key argument - that G1 had all these flaws which G2 'fixed', and that G1 is somehow redundant.

I did. Let me reiterate them.
Gothic 2 has better content. There are more quests with multiple solutions, your actions have a larger impact on the gameworld. There is more of everything. The world was more open, there was more to do and see. The quests were better designed, and I like the improved journal and character system. Gothic 2 also did not have Mud.

It's the same thing with Space Rangers: Why play Space Rangers 1 when Space Rangers 2 has everything and more, besides the backstory (which you can eventually get in the game anyway)?

There I'm done. Now fuck off.

Are you really that fucking stupid?

Space Rangers 2 is Space Rangers 1 with more stuff.

Gothic 2 is NOT Gothic 1 with more stuff.

The Gothic games are action-adventures. You miss out on the entire story and content of G1 if you just play G2. it's a whole different experience.

This isn't fucking EA Sports Gothic 2004 for fucks sakes.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

The Gothic games are action-adventures. You miss out on the entire story and content of G1 if you just play G2. it's a whole different experience.

Yes, you miss out on a linear dungeon crawl that's only good for about 4-5 hours. The story? Who fucking cares. You learn the backstory in Gothic 2, plus more (You learn that the barrier was actually made to protect the ore from Beliar) without the bullshit.

Gothic 1 is an average-to-mediocre game with sometimes great atmosphere. Gothic 2 takes all the good parts of Gothic, makes them better and then ditches all the stupid Sleeper crap and orc stuff (At least until the last half-hour).

They aren't exactly alike, and Gothic 1 does have its share of quality quests and the like, but the point I'm trying to make is that the bad outweighs the good in this case and it's better to just stick with Gothic 2 and the expansion until G3 comes out unless you're really really desperate for some linear dungeon-hackin' action with a storyline that can be adequately summed up in a paragraph or so AND THAT IS EXPLAINED TO YOU, IN DETAIL, IN GOTHIC 2.

My point's been made, and I really don't feel like flinging anymore shit around with you because frankly, I know I'm not going to convince you and the likewise is the same for you. So why don't you shut the hell up and go back to spamming the general RPG discussion board with more oblivion topics? On second thought, just stick with shutting the hell up.

 

[Twinfalls]

I thought you were 'done'... walking off in a huff means you actually walk off, Lunchy.

You have made no point whatsoever. You have an idiotic and manifestly wrong position, namely that Gothic 1 is

a linear dungeon crawl that's only good for about 4-5 hours.

And your dismissal of the worth of playing anything as

The story? Who fucking cares. You learn the backstory in Gothic 2

speaks for its idiotic self.

As for 'Spamming Gen RPG with Oblivion topics', you will note that I have made two topics about Oblivion there in the past month (or longer) - which is less than Vault Dweller. (Edit: it's much longer - I've made fuck-all topics there at all, dickweed)

So how about you get back to juvenile masturbation which nobody reads at Tcancer, hmmm?

 

[Twinfalls]

Amulet? Wasn't it the "This is my diplomacy club. If you don't want me to crack your skull with it, stay the hell out of my way" orcish standard? I loved it! :D

Wasn't it some kind of Totem that granted you amnesty? It's been a while.

Yup, the thing Ur-Shak crafted for you. It was a weapon that you actualy had to unsheathe in cotrast to every other occasion in the game, where the NPCs reacted hostile to drawn weapons.

That was just using the game mechanics to make you show the totem to them. It wasn't that you were threatening them with it. It was just so that they could see you had it. It was a diplomacy thing, not a combat thing.

 

[kingcomrade]

So how about you get back to juvenile masturbation which nobody reads at Tcancer, hmmm?

Yeah why don't you write about how stupid people who can see the direct relationship between Dune 2 and C&C are. Or perhaps you can get into the admin powers abuse that llamagod has fallen into lately. Join the Dark Side! Hiss!!

Both of the Gothic games aren't much fun, I'd recommend playing the demo to Gothic 3 and otherwise spend your time playing something else like Twisted Metal 2.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

A legitimate complaint for sure, but what other games have crafted AI that has come anywhere close to the level of detail that Oblivion offers? I can think of none. That's why I take a lot of these criticisms with a grain of salt. No game is perfect when placed under the microscope, so reviewers tend to gloss over the defects when a title is so strong in its other aspects.

There's quite a few CRPGs out there, both developed by conventional publishers as well as independents where there is the concept of NPC ownership of items and NPCs that scream bloody murder when they catch you taking something. It's only in recent years that conventially published CRPGs have moved away from this concept towards players being able to walk anywhere they want and just take everything that's not nailed down.

Praising Oblivion for doing the easy stuff, like NPC ownership of items, while pointing out how you can wake up NPCs in their homes and talk to them after breaking in and they don't react accordingly shouldn't be a boost to Bethesda's credit on the subject of the AI. This is especially the case given how much talk has been given about how fantastic the AI would be.

Honestly, if NPCs have any sort of scripting check, i.e. MEMORY, it should have been fairly easy to impliment NPCs getting cheesed off at being awakenned by players in their locked up homes.

Like others here have mentioned, perhaps it's the fact that Oblivion is widely regarded as a stellar multi-genre game in many respects, though when compared to traditional RPGs it lacks the depth that the hardcore fanbase expects.

Actually, I have to disagree with people saying that. It's a CRPG. It's just a crap one. It's also a game, one that doesn't live up to much of what was promised.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Yeah why don't you write about how stupid people who can see the direct relationship between Dune 2 and C&C are. Or perhaps you can get into the admin powers abuse that llamagod has fallen into lately. Join the Dark Side! Hiss!!

Don't even start that series bullshit again

You remind me of the crotchety old lady who's always spying on other kids. "You stay away from those Tcancer rascals! They're a bad lot!"

 

[bossjimbob]

There's quite a few CRPGs out there, both developed by conventional publishers as well as independents where there is the concept of NPC ownership of items and NPCs that scream bloody murder when they catch you taking something. It's only in recent years that conventially published CRPGs have moved away from this concept towards players being able to walk anywhere they want and just take everything that's not nailed down.

Praising Oblivion for doing the easy stuff, like NPC ownership of items, while pointing out how you can wake up NPCs in their homes and talk to them after breaking in and they don't react accordingly shouldn't be a boost to Bethesda's credit on the subject of the AI. This is especially the case given how much talk has been given about how fantastic the AI would be.

Like most people posting in these threads, I can't go into great detail about the strengths or weaknesses of Oblivion, simply because I haven't had the chance to play it since I bought it (my hardware bought the farm and is in the process of getting replaced). I'd like to hear from someone familiar with the game precisely what the AI does correctly, and what it is lacking. Aside from a few nitpicky complaints about specific scenarios, I haven't heard anything else about the system at all.

Bethesda touted NPC agendas, independent schedules, a wide variety of actions and interactions beyond the standard patrol area/fight/flee/offer conversation norm. What shines? What could use polish?

What game, be it an RPG or otherwise, has better AI? How is it better? Is it only better in certain circumstances, or is it more sophisticated overall, more congnizant of its surroundings, and generally smarter in a wider variety of situations?

 

[kingcomrade]

"You stay away from those Tcancer rascals! They're a bad lot!"

NL that's not what I've been saying at all. I've been saying, "Hey you Tcancer rascals, you suck at running a board. You're insular and juvenile and the content you've provided so far as has been either mediocre or superfluous."

 

[Naked_Lunch]

We're juvenile? Boo fucking hoo. Aren't you the one who ran around screaming about the nigger redguards in Oblivion? Granted, I'm in no position to bitch about that (I thought some of it was funny) but neither are you to bitch about our occasional juvenilia.

And how is our content mediocre? Sorry I don't think that Starcraft is teh best game ever and that C&C rules all y'all.

I don't think we're insular at all. Just because I dislike most RTS games doesn't mean I hate them all. We've been over this before, your skull is just too thick to absorb any of it.

 

[kingcomrade]

Aren't you the one who ran around screaming about the nigger redguards in Oblivion?

Maybe it takes one to know one, then? I'm not the one running a site with a reference to a lifekilling disease of the genitalia in the title, in any case.

And how is our content mediocre?

The content you do have isn't informative in any way, it's just whatever the 'writer' thought that came to mind. There's no examination of gameplay mechanics, just lots of "this is cool" or "this is kinda dumb."

Sorry I don't think that Starcraft is teh best game ever and that C&C rules all y'all.

What's that got to do with anything?

 

[Section8]

What game, be it an RPG or otherwise, has better AI? How is it better? Is it only better in certain circumstances, or is it more sophisticated overall, more congnizant of its surroundings, and generally smarter in a wider variety of situations?

Well, there's a compromise between quality and quantity that can only really be evaluated from player to player.

For instance, as Master of Orion 3 proves, added complexity does not necessarily make something better.

I guess it depends on the threshold of what you're willing to forgive. Let's say hypothetically, 10% of the time, NPCs do something completely stupid and inappropriate. If you're able to ignore that, and focus on the positive aspects, then great. But for others, it's best to have a more polished implementation, where NPCs may not have the same variety of actions, but the margin for error is greatly reduced.

Let's paraphrase Bethesda's reason for implementing RAI - to make it seem like a living breathing world. Now in the face of that, if the player regularly encounters AI fuckups, then it has failed at its purpose.

I think it's also a case of "one bad apple spoils the whole fucking bunch". If you have 10 NPCs on screen, even if 9 of them are acting in a reasonable manner, all it takes is one to utterly spoil the illusion. Plausible AI is an "all or nothing" feature for me.

But, I'm in the same boat as you. I haven't played the game yet, so I can't judge whether it fucks up often enough to trouble me personally, but it's worrisome that there's an awful lot of people commenting on it.

 

[Shagnak]

Or perhaps you can get into the admin powers abuse that llamagod has fallen into lately.

Sorry, have a missed something?

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Amulet? Wasn't it the "This is my diplomacy club. If you don't want me to crack your skull with it, stay the hell out of my way" orcish standard? I loved it! :D

Wasn't it some kind of Totem that granted you amnesty? It's been a while.

How could you forget the Ulu Muluu? i am soooo siding with the orcs in gothic 3.

 

[Lumpy]

People who give Oblivion big scores aren't sucking up to Bethesda, they are liking it. Like 90% of their readers. Or do you suggest that they should write reviews for the 2% who want deep, dialogue driven, Fallout-like RPGs, resulting in their sales reducing by 98%?

No, that's our job. Hence the angle we take on our news posts.

Exactly my point.