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Review Oblivion spooge at GameSpot(Xbox360 version)

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
kingcomrade said:
Both of the Gothic games aren't much fun, I'd recommend playing the demo to Gothic 3 and otherwise spend your time playing something else like Twisted Metal 2.
Huh? Demo?
I agree that Gothic I was a great game with a nice story and atmosphere, I disliked the fact that it was completly linear besides chapter one. But I'm not going to go into that again, I already have in Gothic I - an RPG?
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,560
Lumpy said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Lumpy said:
People who give Oblivion big scores aren't sucking up to Bethesda, they are liking it. Like 90% of their readers. Or do you suggest that they should write reviews for the 2% who want deep, dialogue driven, Fallout-like RPGs, resulting in their sales reducing by 98%?
No, that's our job. Hence the angle we take on our news posts.
Exactly my point.
The real question is would a deep, dialogue driven, Fallout-like RPG that's pushed as much as Oblivion result in sales falling 98%?
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
DarkUnderlord said:
Lumpy said:
DarkUnderlord said:
Lumpy said:
People who give Oblivion big scores aren't sucking up to Bethesda, they are liking it. Like 90% of their readers. Or do you suggest that they should write reviews for the 2% who want deep, dialogue driven, Fallout-like RPGs, resulting in their sales reducing by 98%?
No, that's our job. Hence the angle we take on our news posts.
Exactly my point.
The real question is would a deep, dialogue driven, Fallout-like RPG that's pushed as much as Oblivion result in sales falling 98%?
No, but I doubt it would be as popular as TES IV. But Fallout 3 could be such a game.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Oblivion could have been deep and dialogue-driven, and it would still have sold as much as it will (possibly a bit more).

The KOTORs were dialogue-driven. Didn't hurt their sales.

Bethesda just took the easy way out. They could have made it much more Daggerfallian, with more skills, decisions, and more verbose, sophisticated story and writing, etc.

It would have sold every bit as well.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
Oblivion could have been deep and dialogue-driven, and it would still have sold as much as it will (possibly a bit more).

That's something I've never quite got about the games industry. Hype and name recognition will bring in the less discerning gamer, so why not focus the actual game development on providing some substance to net the rest, who will check facts, read reviews from peers and in some cases outright ignore and oppose the marketing drivel?
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Consolidation of publishing power, dumbassed risk-aversion, fear of the mallrat focus-group, loss of industry people 'in it for the love', that 'me generation' you spoke of earlier, dumbing down generally of the overall population.

I guess.

Who needs to make substance any more?

Why aren't you in the business any more, for example?
 

bossjimbob

Liturgist
Joined
Mar 30, 2003
Messages
225
Section8 said:
I guess it depends on the threshold of what you're willing to forgive. Let's say hypothetically, 10% of the time, NPCs do something completely stupid and inappropriate. If you're able to ignore that, and focus on the positive aspects, then great. But for others, it's best to have a more polished implementation, where NPCs may not have the same variety of actions, but the margin for error is greatly reduced.

Let's paraphrase Bethesda's reason for implementing RAI - to make it seem like a living breathing world. Now in the face of that, if the player regularly encounters AI fuckups, then it has failed at its purpose.

I think it's also a case of "one bad apple spoils the whole fucking bunch". If you have 10 NPCs on screen, even if 9 of them are acting in a reasonable manner, all it takes is one to utterly spoil the illusion. Plausible AI is an "all or nothing" feature for me.
True, but I am the type of person who would rather play a game that tries something new with AI than strip the system down to its bare essentials to avoid emergent "accidents" from blowing the sense of immersion. Let's pretend that the devs stripped a lot of the ancillary decision-making routines from the AI, so encounters were more focused and less was left to chance. Would that make it a better experience? What if you couldn't break into a person's home after hours, simply because the AI wasn't up to snuff and they didn't want players to see through the facade?

I'd rather experience something that shows marked effort than play a rehash of the same old thing that's been done for years. The original Half-Life had stellar AI for its time, but since then games have become more complex, giving gamers more opportunities to "mess with the works." Half-Life 2 introduced a heavy reliance on physics for gameplay, which resulted in a different style of game. I can only imagine how much more of a nightmare coding the AI for that game must have been since the world was much richer in terms of level design and event scripting.

Again, I'm not rushing to the defense of a game I have yet to play. I'm merely stating the other viewpoint that every game has its flaws, though there are some titles that possess strong qualities that more than make up for their shortcomings.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
Who needs to make substance any more?

True to a degree, but I don't think you lose the more casual gamer by including a bit of depth and substance, as long as you focus your marketing on them.

Why aren't you in the business any more, for example?

Basically because it got really fucking depressing to have so little faith shown in my ideas, and having no way to block the imposition of bad ideas from higher up. Basically I was (and still am) of the opinion that you have to make a game that works for you, and as soon as you try to cater for an audience, then everybody loses. My "bosses" thought differently, and that's pretty much an irreconcilable difference.

I thought about trying to make a living as an indie until reality set in, so now I'm doing my best to get a steady job, and good pay, so one day I can be a hobbyist developer. :?

True, but I am the type of person who would rather play a game that tries something new with AI than strip the system down to its bare essentials to avoid emergent "accidents" from blowing the sense of immersion. Let's pretend that the devs stripped a lot of the ancillary decision-making routines from the AI, so encounters were more focused and less was left to chance. Would that make it a better experience? What if you couldn't break into a person's home after hours, simply because the AI wasn't up to snuff and they didn't want players to see through the facade?

That's a good point, and one that's been ticking over in the back of my mind, because I'm certainly not a fan of developers who cut features as a means to get rid of problems rather than addressing them at the source. I'm also a huge proponent of innovation across the board.

The question is whether or not an ambitious design that falls short* of the mark should be considered "the best" and worth of perfect and near perfect scores, or whether it should be hailed as a great promise for the future that isn't here yet.

As I see it, it's not even clearly that. The Sims 2 employs a near identical system (in terms of the theory behind it) but I can't really compare the two without first hand Oblivion experience.

Again, I'm not rushing to the defense of a game I have yet to play. I'm merely stating the other viewpoint that every game has its flaws, though there are some titles that possess strong qualities that more than make up for their shortcomings.

Yep, and in this case, I'm hoping the shortcomings are exaggerated. AI mistakes can really detract from my enjoyment. FEAR for instance, could be said to be far more complex than Half-Life or Far Cry in terms of what the AI was capable of, but the percentage of AI fuckups was too high for me ignore.

For instance, I'd wince whenever I'd hear "fire in the hole", since half the time that meant some idiot was about to blow himself and/or his squadmates up.

And it was great that the AI would hurdle low walls/railings, but a lot of the time it did so at completely inappropriate moments. I lost count of the number of times a soldier would hurdle over the bit of cover I was hiding behind, giving me free, undefended fire against a target at point blank range. It didn't help that these were supposedly cloned super soldiers, either.
 

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