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Oblivion wasn't dumbed down for consoles sez Desslock

suibhne

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Spectacle said:
Oblivion wasn't dumbed down for consoles, it was dumbed down for dumb people.

Ja wohl.

However, dumb people tend to congregate in the console world for two reasons:
1. Consoles are less complex than computers, so dumb people have less trouble using them
2. Computers are more expensive than consoles, and dumb people usually have less money than smart people.

Consoles are "mass entertainment" in a way that PC RPGs are not. I don't think the console audience is stupid because of the reasons you list, but there are obvious consequences for expanding your market to include the subscriber base of Weekly World News.

Also, Crichton's post was dead-on.
 

Lumpy

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Nog Robbin said:
In fact, the whole "can't fail" thing (enchantments always work, spells always work, potions always succeed") shows how dumbed down the game is. The chance of failure has been pretty much removed. I guess that annoyed people?

It is a shame the game has sold so well - because others will try to immitate it for success rather than producing some genuine RPG goodness.
That is debatable. I don't think either system is worse.
 

Binary

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"How is Oblivion dumbed down compared to its predecessor, Morrowind?" - Desslock

"Axes are blunt weapons" - Todd Howard

Do I really have to add anything else?
 

Crichton

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"How is Oblivion dumbed down compared to its predecessor, Morrowind?" - Desslock

"Axes are blunt weapons" - Todd Howard

Do I really have to add anything else?

This is just silly, in OB there are three types of melee combat, boxing, 1-handed weapons and 2-handed weapons (the blunt-blade thing is a distinction without a difference, like a battle axe and long sword in D&D, both 1d8 slashing 1h weapons).

This isn't much compared to mount and blade (~6-7 depending on how you count things) or jedi academy (5), but morrowind also only has 3 weapon loadouts that actually make a difference, boxing (does fatigue damage), 1-handed weapons (allow the use of a shield), 2-handed weapons (no sheild but more damage). The only difference between using a "polearm" and a two-handed sword is that the two-handed sword does more damage. You use them both exactly the same way, you walk up to the enemy and click the attack button. Keep clicking and once every x sec, your character will attack.

If you added an "axe" skill to OB, and axes behaved identically to swords and clubs , you'd simply have 3 "distinct" skills without any difference as opposed to 2? How would this improve anything?

If people want to bitch about simplistic combat in OB, they should bitch about all three fighting styles having the same "special move", but this doesn't make it dumbed down compared to Morrowind because in morrowind, there were no attack options (or blocking options) whatsoever.
 

Frankie

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I sent my e-mail to Deslock telling me what I though of his opinion, in a civil manner. :D

PCGamer is in Bethesda's back pocket. That much can be seen quite clearly with their glowing review and now Deslock's article.
 

Bradylama

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this doesn't make it dumbed down compared to Morrowind because in morrowind, there were no attack options (or blocking options) whatsoever.

That's because Morrowind didn't adopt dumb special moves and auto-block, and instead had combat based on character skill. I know, it's more like an RPG right? Silly Bethesda.
 

Thrawn05

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Bradylama said:
this doesn't make it dumbed down compared to Morrowind because in morrowind, there were no attack options (or blocking options) whatsoever.

That's because Morrowind didn't adopt dumb special moves and auto-block, and instead had combat based on character skill. I know, it's more like an RPG right? Silly Bethesda.

Not to mention that (unless you turned the option off) you had to move in a certain direction to chop, slash or thrust. Still not as good as how Arena and Daggerfall did it. There you were required to do some *gasp* physical labor. Long sword duels could really tire you out. IMMERSION!!!
 

Crichton

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That's because Morrowind didn't adopt dumb special moves and auto-block, and instead had combat based on character skill. I know, it's more like an RPG right? Silly Bethesda.

If "combat based on character skill" means watching your character sit there and chop without making any imput, that's dumbed down.
 

Bradylama

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People aren't arguing the "dumbing down" on the basis of TES's action elements. You couldn't hit things with weapons you weren't skilled with in Morrowind, but Oblivion had an auto-hit while maintaining the damage roll. Not being able to hit stuff right in front of you is something that Morrowind carried over from Daggerfall.

Oblivion's weapons skills don't reflect your player character's actual "skill" but how hard you hit with them.

I mean, the player input in Morrowind was left-clicking, while the input for Daggerfall and Arena was holding the right button and swinging around the mouse. Morrowind was dumbed down, sure, but skill actually meant something.
 

Binary

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Crichton said:
If people want to bitch about simplistic combat in OB, they should bitch about all three fighting styles having the same "special move", but this doesn't make it dumbed down compared to Morrowind because in morrowind, there were no attack options (or blocking options) whatsoever.

I'm not bitching about simplistic combat, I couldn't care less about any ES combat system since they're all crap.

The question was: "is oblivion dumbed down?" and the answer is a friggin HELL YEAH

"Axes are blunt weapons" are just the tip of the iceberg. What about the size of menus, the lockpick and persuasion minigames, etc?

Don't get me wrong, Oblivion has some things done right, but, as an RPG, it is just slightly above average, probably because it was made to attract a different audience than the typical RPGamer.
 

Twinfalls

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Saint_Proverbius said:
Desselock can always be found up the current "million copies shipped" CRPG developer's ass so far, he can suck the saliva soaked doritos and queso dip out of their gums for his nourishment. Often is it heard around popular CRPG development studios, "I thought I had to take a huge dump. Turns out it was just Desselock making a new nest in my ass after reading our units shipped press release." He's the jet setting ass mole of CRPG journalism.
 

DarkUnderlord

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VenomByte said:
Oblivion wasn't dumbed down.... it was just made so uber-complex and deep that it went right off the top of the scale of complexity and looped back around to impossible depths of moronic streamlining.
Buffer overflow?

Oblivion is RPG-light all the way through. From the insanely simple lock-picking mini-game (tear through level 5 locks in all of 3 seconds with a level 1 character who has no stealth skill what-so-ever) to the immensely retarded persuasion mini-game ("I'll do whatever you say", "That's funny", "Why, thank you" and repeat "I'll do whatever you say"). Then there's the ruins ala Morrowind who all have people outside ready to attack you for no good reason what-so-ever.

People say the combat is improved too but... eh? I'm still left-clicking and right-clicking while I jump around UT2k4 style. How's this a massive improvement on Morrowind? Oh and the dialogue. RUMOURS? Yep. Huge improvement there.

And... and... the graphics really suck on my PC. I swear, the trees in Morrowind look better at a distance than the crap I'm seeing in Oblivion. Morrowinds paper map that came with it was a lot better too. I could at least see stuff on it and wander around and find cool places. Oblivion's is brown and empty and has nothing on it. What's the point in providing a paper map at all if you're not going to put the effort in?
 

Surgey

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By having NPCs that actually move [omg!] and have a purpose?

He forgot to mention that that purpose (which is the sole purpose of all the NPC's) is to walk around and stare at walls and have broken conversations by day, and go to sleep or sneak around and stare at dark walls by night.

Binary said:
"Axes are blunt weapons" are just the tip of the iceberg. What about the size of menus, the lockpick and persuasion minigames, etc?

Dude, I don't know about you, but when I talk to people, I boast, insult them, intimidate them, tell jokes, and admire them all in the same sentence every time; hell, sometimes I manage to do them at the SAME time in one word!

And then I give them some money.
 
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Surgey said:
By having NPCs that actually move [omg!] and have a purpose?

He forgot to mention that that purpose (which is the sole purpose of all the NPC's) is to walk around and stare at walls and have broken conversations by day, and go to sleep or sneak around and stare at dark walls by night.

And pull rakes over the same piece of ground with no apparent effect for six hours.
I saw a mudcrab yesterday.
 

bozia2012

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Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again!
DarkUnderlord said:
All items and encounters are levelled to meet the player, thus removing any and all challenge that might ever have been present. Lockpicking that super-hard chest in the castle at level 1 nets you some coin and not the bounty you might've hoped for given the difficulty of the lock or importance of the castle the chest is in. Wandering into the furthest, darkest cave in the entire land at level 1 finds you in an encounter with nothing more than rats.

That is untrue, mister! :) "In the furthest and darkest caves" you'll fight vampires and in oblivion plane you'll fight dremoras (fully armored) and other deadra spawn, but what is "interesting" they're extremly weak and don't have any loot (that is if you would call "a carrot and a few septims" loot). Pathethic at best.
Every "improvement" since MW is bringing OB closer to Sims or Fable (Princess Maker 2 anyone? :))... Also it's easier for fanboys to compare OB to MW and not to DF.

Well, back to TQ :P
 

Jasede

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Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Codex Year of the Donut I'm very into cock and ball torture
A monk asked Todd to teach him.
Todd asked him to rake a small spot of ground until Todd would tell him to stop.
The monk replied, "Yes, I shall."
Six hours passed, and the monk raked.
Todd asked, "Have you raked the same small spot of ground for six hours?"
The monk replied, "Yes, I have."
"Then go stare at a dark wall all night long," said Todd.
At that moment, the monk became radiant.
 

User was nabbed fit

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Jasede said:
A monk asked Todd to teach him.
Todd asked him to rake a small spot of ground until Todd would tell him to stop.
The monk replied, "Yes, I shall."
Six hours passed, and the monk raked.
Todd asked, "Have you raked the same small spot of ground for six hours?"
The monk replied, "Yes, I have."
"Then go stare at a dark wall all night long," said Todd.
At that moment, the monk became radiant.

:lol: :lol: :lol:
 

Jon

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Todd Howard in 'Making of' said:
it's run through dungeons and kill creatures and take good stuff and buy bigger weapons and kill bigger creatures

Never has a truer word been spoken.
 

TheGreatGodPan

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Frankie said:
I sent my e-mail to Deslock telling me what I though of his opinion, in a civil manner. :D

PCGamer is in Bethesda's back pocket. That much can be seen quite clearly with their glowing review and now Deslock's article.
Posting here for a change? Have a good time, but watch your back in case Major Blackheart is behind you.
 

DarkUnderlord

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bozia2012 said:
That is untrue, mister! :) "In the furthest and darkest caves" you'll fight vampires and in oblivion plane you'll fight dremoras (fully armored) and other deadra spawn, but what is "interesting" they're extremly weak and don't have any loot (that is if you would call "a carrot and a few septims" loot). Pathethic at best.
I must've got the gimped version of Oblivion. :( The best I've had so far are imps (with rats in the same cave) shooting fireballs at me causing a massive 1/1000th of damage to my health bar. I mean, that's one whole hit point! I'm afraid here! How dare they actually attempt to provide any sort of challenge to me? They should just die when I look at them!

The same mentality that was behind Morrowind is clearly behind Oblivion though. You encounter an exciting new cave thinking "Oh wow, got to go in and check this out" and instead of finding a Dragon, the fight of your life and a bounty of ph4t loot to make it all worthwhile (think 10,000 in gold coin, 100 rubies and a flashy new sword), you're instead lucky if you encounter a rat guarding a chest with 17 gold in it and a spoon. A spoon? What's the point? Why am I doing this? Why am I even bothering with these caves when all I walk out with is 50 in coin and a handful of skulls to add to my collection? Okay, so I admit that the skulls are definitely worthwhile but the rest..? I've already found the guys who'll give me 250 gold for every dead vampire. Why should I even bother with 90% of the caves I'm visiting?

This is the same feeling Morrowind gave me. What's scary though is that I've maybe only done 20 or so(?) caves and already I'm wondering what the point is. At least in Morrowind I didn't get that feeling until after I'd finished the main quest and wandered over every inch of the island. With Oblivion, I seem to know that I've already seen everything the game has to offer. I have to say the voice changes are irritating the crap out of me too. I talk to a beggar who's fully voiced(!) except she changes voice 3 or 4 times if I'm lucky AND has absolutely nothing to say. It's either the same rumour about the fighter's guild or the Gray Fox (and while I'm at it, there seem to be an awful lot of "Gray" something or other's in the Imperial City, like "Gray Tongue") and I give them a coin and I'm on my way. Sure, the lists in Morrowind were information overload but it's like someone moved the lever right back to the other extreme of the spectrum. Hey Bethesda, somewhere in the middle beween the two if you don't mind, you might get lucky and find some balance somewhere in there. I doubt it though.

I like the "life story in 3 seconds" aspect too. I walk up behind someone to pass them but they jump me with a "How are you?" so I decide to talk to them and I get their entire life story delivered to me in the opening 3 lines. "My name is Aracius Marcellus and I'm an expert in stealth. Damn good too. I have a wife and we just bought a house in the market district". And what can I ask in return? "Uhhh.. RUMOURS?" I especially like the ones that add "idiot" or "moron" to the end of their speech, just to give it that authentic feel. Bethesda must've known they were on to a winner with that one.

The graphics are the other thing bugging me. I've got a 2.4 Ghz Pentium IV, 1 Gig RAM and (used to have) a Radeon 9200 SE graphics card. This machine has had no problems displaying the beautiful people in Half-Life 2. It ran Bloodlines without a problem. I chewed through Doom 3 in a few days with it all looking good. Unreal Tournament 2004 with its long view distances wasn't a problem for it and neither was Far Cry, which had some beautiful tree filled forests and absolutely huge viewing distances. Battlefield 1942 and Battlefield Vietnam both run fine, both with their huge viewing distances and the latter with its quite involved forests, grass included. Sure, I wasn't running these on full settings but somewhere in the mid-settings range. But Oblivion? Nope. I needed a new graphics card just so I could play it (I got the "why is everything white" problem). So with a new Radeon 9550 SE (el-cheapo, the decent one will come with the new PC sometime next year) what do I see in Oblivion? I have to turn the grass off, the trees are right down to the lowest value which makes them look like utter crap and it runs... well, it's playable but it looks like crap and there are times when it could be better. How come Far Cry looks so much better and can run fine yet Oblivion can't handle it? Where's all the processing power going? Does "Radiant" AI suck up that much? Hell, even the forests in IGI 2 look better with the game running better and that has the same long-range viewing distance as Oblivion.

I have to admit I am some-what enjoying the combat now though. Emphasis on the "some-what" due to the lack of challenge and the fact that I seem capable of taking fireballs to the face without harm nor injury. Actually, the combat is almost like the lockpicking and persuasion mini-games. Once you figure out the rhythm and the pattern, there's no challenge. Block. Block. Block. He swung at me and is stunned, power attack. Block. Block. He's swung and is stunned again so deliver 2 quick blows while I can. Block. Compare that to the lockpicking game. Knock pin up, the click sound isn't right, knock pin up, ahah that's the right click sound I'm looking for so I'll quickly click that one in place. Move on to the next pin. The sad thing is that the lockpicking game wouldn't be half-bad if there was actually some challenge to it. Make wiggling the pin into place harder, there should be a whole aspect there with wiggling the pick around in the lock and moving the mouse just carefully enough to get it into place, get the right sound and lock it in. As it is I can tear through a "Very Hard" lock in all of about 3 seconds. Of course, all I find is 3 gold and a pair of clogs but hey, it was worth it...

Oh wait, no it wasn't.
 

POOPERSCOOPER

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Did you actually buy Oblivion, DarkUnderlord? Was it for the sake of being able to get the right to say that the game sucks balls becuase you played it?
 

DarkUnderlord

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No, it was because I enjoyed Morrowind and was looking for an improvement. Speaking of which, weren't the caves meant to be bigger in Oblivion? So far I'm getting the same 3 rooms and a passageway that I got in Morrowind.
 

Data4

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DarkUnderlord said:
No, it was because I enjoyed Morrowind and was looking for an improvement. Speaking of which, weren't the caves meant to be bigger in Oblivion? So far I'm getting the same 3 rooms and a passageway that I got in Morrowind.

Eh... about the only dungeons that are worth a damn to me are the Ayleid ruins. They seemed bigger, anyway. There's a mod in the works by a guy named Buffguy at the ESF that looks pretty good. Supposed to be an epic sized dungeon of sorts. Still won't be as good as my PotC mod, but hey, can't win 'em all I guess.

-D4
 

psycojester

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As i remember i encountered 1 cave in Oblivion that i enjoyed. It was down in the southern corner of the map and contained 2 factions of bandits engaged in a pitched battled. That was mildly intresting to watch
 

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