Indie Obscure indies that deserve more attention - Updated Jan. 2020

[vonAchdorf]

Textual lists don't lend themselves that well to inventory restrictions

What you mean by that?

Lists are by concept of unlimited length, so restricting them to a certain size feels off to me. One possibility to "naturally" enforce limits for list could be be weight limits.

 

[Excidium II]

Textual lists don't lend themselves that well to inventory restrictions

What you mean by that?

Lists are by concept of unlimited length, so restricting them to a certain size feels off to me. One possibility to "naturally" enforce limits for list could be be weight limits.

Uh what's new about that? Weight is how the vast majority of RPG systems limit carry capacity. it's natural and scale of your stats unlike an arbitrary size limit which is just awful, no RPG should do that regardless of how inventory is represented visually.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Textual lists don't lend themselves that well to inventory restrictions

What you mean by that?

Lists are by concept of unlimited length, so restricting them to a certain size feels off to me. One possibility to "naturally" enforce limits for list could be be weight limits.

Uh what's new about that? Weight is how the vast majority of RPG systems limit carry capacity. it's natural and scale of your stats unlike an arbitrary size limit which is just awful, no RPG should do that.

I like the combination of weight and size limits. A simple weight limit is as gamey as a simple size limit.

 

[Roqua]

So all the IE games, all the Trokia games, the dark Sun games, Realms of Arkania, pretty much every single crpg since 1988 is wrong for not having a caveman list? That is about as retarded as you. That is literally like saying graphical representation of anything is for kids, and text base is for adults. Which I will reply have fun playing Zork. Since I am a man of science and technology I believe in the advancement of science and technology and that mean graphics user interfaces are better than console UIs made for controller using monkey-savages and caveman retards.

Those games were the beginning of the end.

Technology evolves but the best way to represent a collection of entities (such as an RPG inventory) visually is still a textual table.

That is fucking retarded. So the best way to represent a party is a list? So the best way to represent a group of bad guys is a list? Services in a town? All npcs in a town?

Again, you are saying Zork is the penultimate rpg, when you are really just trying to say consoles do it best because of controller monkey savageness. Fuck you and fuck consoles and fuck controllers.

 

[vonAchdorf]

That is fucking retarded. So the best way to represent a party is a list? So the best way to represent a group of bad guys is a list? Services in a town? All npcs in a town?

Again, you are saying Zork is the penultimate rpg, when you are really just trying to say consoles do it best because of controller monkey savageness. Fuck you and fuck consoles and fuck controllers.

Darklands did this just fine.

 

[Excidium II]

Textual lists don't lend themselves that well to inventory restrictions

What you mean by that?

Lists are by concept of unlimited length, so restricting them to a certain size feels off to me. One possibility to "naturally" enforce limits for list could be be weight limits.

Uh what's new about that? Weight is how the vast majority of RPG systems limit carry capacity. it's natural and scale of your stats unlike an arbitrary size limit which is just awful, no RPG should do that.

I like the combination of weight and size limits. A simple weight limit is as gamey as a simple size limit.

What do you mean by size limits, item dimensions or a numeric limit on how many items you can carry?

The former is what inventory tetris is good for, but even icon advocates tend to hate that particular implementation.

 

[Roqua]

So all the IE games, all the Trokia games, the dark Sun games, Realms of Arkania, pretty much every single crpg since 1988 is wrong for not having a caveman list? That is about as retarded as you. That is literally like saying graphical representation of anything is for kids, and text base is for adults. Which I will reply have fun playing Zork. Since I am a man of science and technology I believe in the advancement of science and technology and that mean graphics user interfaces are better than console UIs made for controller using monkey-savages and caveman retards.

Those games were the beginning of the end.

Technology evolves but the best way to represent a collection of entities (such as an RPG inventory) visually is still a textual table.

I feel like I'm getting involved in the Afghanastan of RPG discussions, but I have to chime in. I love list inventories. I think Fallout 1/2 did them quite well. I also actually enjoy the inventory system of the IE games, and much more recently, the quasi-simulationist inventory of NEO Scavenger.

All that being said, list inventories have an achilles heel: designers properly naming things. I played a decent amount of FNV when it came out, and my god, the lack of unified naming principles and random inclusion of 'the', 'it' and ammo names being all over the fucking place just made it horrible. I firmly believe a list inventory is the fastest and most efficient inventory method when the designers make sure to write item names taking the list-as-an-organizational-tool into account. But when ammo is spread around as "Fusion Cells", "0.45 ACP" and "38 calibre" and everything is sorted alphabetically, fuck me with a mace.

I don't understand. You love list inventories but list games without list inventories as ones you like (FO 1/2, IE games, and NEO Scavenger.

Also, what do you love about list inventories? How great they are for controllers?

 

[Excidium II]

Roqua the best way you can support something is by being quiet about it. Because of your mental illness people find it hard to simpathize.

 

[vonAchdorf]

What do you mean by size limits, item dimensions or a numeric limit on how many items you can carry?

The former is what inventory tetris is good for, but even icon advocates tend to hate that particular implementation.

A numeric limit, I don't like inventory Tetris. That's why I think a fixed number with weight limits is best for most games (Realm of Arcania).

 

[Roqua]

That is fucking retarded. So the best way to represent a party is a list? So the best way to represent a group of bad guys is a list? Services in a town? All npcs in a town?

Again, you are saying Zork is the penultimate rpg, when you are really just trying to say consoles do it best because of controller monkey savageness. Fuck you and fuck consoles and fuck controllers.

Darklands did this just fine.

Not 100% and other games still do this as well because no content is less expensive than content.

 

[Roqua]

Roqua the best way you can support something is by being quiet about it. Because of your mental illness people find it hard to simpathize.

Coming from the same person who said the best way to represent a group of entities is a list?

What is my mental illness? Not being a fucking idiot console monkey sucking the dick of the corporate globalism? Fuck you, retard.

 

[Excidium II]

What do you mean by size limits, item dimensions or a numeric limit on how many items you can carry?

The former is what inventory tetris is good for, but even icon advocates tend to hate that particular implementation.

A numeric limit, I don't like inventory Tetris. That's why I think a fixed number with weight limits is best for most games (Realm of Arcania).

But that's just arbitrary. Why can people only carry X things? What divine force stops them from carrying X+1?

Weight limit is not a perfect abstraction but it's still a superior one. Now if you could also factor in dimensions somehow to make things like a big ass pike cumbersome to carry compared to a box of the same weight, that'd be cool.

 

[Excidium II]

Roqua the best way you can support something is by being quiet about it. Because of your mental illness people find it hard to simpathize.

Coming from the same person who said the best way to represent a group of entities is a list?

What is my mental illness? Not being a fucking idiot console monkey sucking the dick of the corporate globalism? Fuck you, retard.

You hate consoles yet 9 out of 10 games you post look like thet belong on consoles. I mean the only reason they aren't on consoles is because those shovelware can't get their hands on a console dev kit.

Also lists are the best way to represent anything except things that are made for savages like a sales catalog with large pictures to draw attention.

 

[vonAchdorf]

But that's just arbitrary. Why can people only carry X things? What divine force stops them from carrying X+1?

Weight limit is not a perfect abstraction but it's still a superior one. Now if you could also factor in dimensions somehow to make things like a big ass pike cumbersome to carry compared to a box of the same weight, that'd be cool.

Thats why I think weigh isn't superior. Weight with numeric lists is a good and usable approximation, especially because smaller items (consumables) are stackable.

 

[Excidium II]

I'd rather find how to factor in item dimension stats somehow.

 

[agris]

So all the IE games, all the Trokia games, the dark Sun games, Realms of Arkania, pretty much every single crpg since 1988 is wrong for not having a caveman list? That is about as retarded as you. That is literally like saying graphical representation of anything is for kids, and text base is for adults. Which I will reply have fun playing Zork. Since I am a man of science and technology I believe in the advancement of science and technology and that mean graphics user interfaces are better than console UIs made for controller using monkey-savages and caveman retards.

Those games were the beginning of the end.

Technology evolves but the best way to represent a collection of entities (such as an RPG inventory) visually is still a textual table.

I feel like I'm getting involved in the Afghanastan of RPG discussions, but I have to chime in. I love list inventories. I think Fallout 1/2 did them quite well. I also actually enjoy the inventory system of the IE games, and much more recently, the quasi-simulationist inventory of NEO Scavenger.

All that being said, list inventories have an achilles heel: designers properly naming things. I played a decent amount of FNV when it came out, and my god, the lack of unified naming principles and random inclusion of 'the', 'it' and ammo names being all over the fucking place just made it horrible. I firmly believe a list inventory is the fastest and most efficient inventory method when the designers make sure to write item names taking the list-as-an-organizational-tool into account. But when ammo is spread around as "Fusion Cells", "0.45 ACP" and "38 calibre" and everything is sorted alphabetically, fuck me with a mace.

I don't understand. You love list inventories but list games without list inventories as ones you like (FO 1/2, IE games, and NEO Scavenger.

Also, what do you love about list inventories? How great they are for controllers?

Fallout 1 and 2 use list inventories. Stating other games that I like which use non-list inventories is so that you can see I'm not slavishly advocating One Inventory to Rule Them All, while providing nuance to my preference; I can appreciate other forms of inventory systems.

My point is that I think a well-designed list inventory can be fast an effectual, but it must be well-designed. Specifically, the text or item-tags used to sort. I think the icon-based inventories get a pass in this regard, and are easier to implement because they don't need the strict textual item naming conventions required to make list inventories practical instead of infuriating.

 

[Roqua]

So all the IE games, all the Trokia games, the dark Sun games, Realms of Arkania, pretty much every single crpg since 1988 is wrong for not having a caveman list? That is about as retarded as you. That is literally like saying graphical representation of anything is for kids, and text base is for adults. Which I will reply have fun playing Zork. Since I am a man of science and technology I believe in the advancement of science and technology and that mean graphics user interfaces are better than console UIs made for controller using monkey-savages and caveman retards.

Those games were the beginning of the end.

Technology evolves but the best way to represent a collection of entities (such as an RPG inventory) visually is still a textual table.

I feel like I'm getting involved in the Afghanastan of RPG discussions, but I have to chime in. I love list inventories. I think Fallout 1/2 did them quite well. I also actually enjoy the inventory system of the IE games, and much more recently, the quasi-simulationist inventory of NEO Scavenger.

All that being said, list inventories have an achilles heel: designers properly naming things. I played a decent amount of FNV when it came out, and my god, the lack of unified naming principles and random inclusion of 'the', 'it' and ammo names being all over the fucking place just made it horrible. I firmly believe a list inventory is the fastest and most efficient inventory method when the designers make sure to write item names taking the list-as-an-organizational-tool into account. But when ammo is spread around as "Fusion Cells", "0.45 ACP" and "38 calibre" and everything is sorted alphabetically, fuck me with a mace.

I don't understand. You love list inventories but list games without list inventories as ones you like (FO 1/2, IE games, and NEO Scavenger.

Also, what do you love about list inventories? How great they are for controllers?

Fallout 1 and 2 use list inventories. Stating other games that I like which use non-list inventories is so that you can see I'm not slavishly advocating One Inventory to Rule Them All, while providing nuance to my preference; I can appreciate other forms of inventory systems.

My point is that I think a well-designed list inventory can be fast an effectual, but it must be well-designed. Specifically, the text or item-tags used to sort. I think the icon-based inventories get a pass in this regard, and are easier to implement because they don't need the strict textual item naming conventions required to make list inventories practical instead of infuriating.

FO1 and 2 used the far more advanced GUI inventory I am advocating for as the hands-down inarguable standard for quality rpgs for 25 years now. If you are defining list as anything that is one after another then you are missing are in the wrong argument. List is defined as -

a number of connected items or names written or printed consecutively, typically one below the other.

So, using the definition any inventory in any game is a list. That isn't helpful. There is a huge difference between a UI list of words cavemen used before the wheel was invented, and the far more advanced and space age GUI graphical representation of the item in the game, regardless if it is shown horizontally, vertically, diagonally, or whateverlly.

The retarded guy and I are arguing about a list like in savage monkey console games that use a list of words (Skyrim, FO3, all the rest of shit console games for monkeys and optimized for the input device of choice for monkey people - the controller) and a good, real rpg inventory which shows pictures or some other technologically infused visual representation of the items you are carrying or equipping.

Roqua the best way you can support something is by being quiet about it. Because of your mental illness people find it hard to simpathize.

Coming from the same person who said the best way to represent a group of entities is a list?

What is my mental illness? Not being a fucking idiot console monkey sucking the dick of the corporate globalism? Fuck you, retard.

You hate consoles yet 9 out of 10 games you post look like thet belong on consoles. I mean the only reason they aren't on consoles is because those shovelware can't get their hands on a console dev kit.

Also lists are the best way to represent anything except things that are made for savages like a sales catalog with large pictures to draw attention.

I hate consoles because the games that come out on them are rpg-lite softcore porn games for fucking morons and children. What are words to describe console games? Streamlined, inclusive, emergent, retarded, no challenge, hipster, retarded, shit, kids can figure it out in two seconds. Appeal to this new hipster craze where everyone just HAS to jump on the bandwagon and love something so they can be included and be a youtube video fucking idiot.

It has nothing to do with looks. A good game is a good game regardless of how it looks. What matters is function and standards. The RPG standard since 1990 has been a GUI, not a UI that the console games use for controllers. Fully remapable keys, heavy mouse and keyboard support, real inventories. Fuck your gay ass soundtracks. Fuck your fancy smancy lighting sources and super textures that suck up 95% of the games budget. Fuck your infantile and sophomoric child brain and hipster shit. I want real crpgs too difficult for the console monkeys to ever want to buy, and too complex for children to ever be able to play. I want smart games with deep and complex systems for no fucking reason at all besides we crpg fans love that shit. We love thinking. It is us versus the systems of the game and who can win. Games with content besides talking and more talking and hot action that isn't good or deep but all the hipsters say it is because their betters said it was and Goebbels was right about lying loud enough and long enough.

Goddman we need that crpg forum so I don't have to constantly get into retard fights and can never get beyond the surface of anything because all I do is argue with monkeys that couldn't have an original thought if one rapped your face holes.

 

[Llama-Yak Hybrid]

Roqua the best way you can support something is by being quiet about it. Because of your mental illness people find it hard to simpathize.

I agree with him completely, dunno what are you talking about.

But that's just arbitrary. Why can people only carry X things? What divine force stops them from carrying X+1?

Their backpack is about to blow.

The inventory-puzzle-like UI "simulates" having a backpack of sorts, in non-ideal way(ideally it would also take weight into account, in exceptional situations also the kind of backpack and other shit you're wearing, but I personally think that it'll distract you too much from the meat of the game), that's what stops you.

However the entire point of that kind of equipments is that when you open your inventory you instantly see everything you have without bullshit scrolling or checking 93462 sub-menus.

 

[Excidium II]

However the entire point of that kind of equipments is that when you open your inventory you instantly see everything you have without bullshit scrolling or checking 93462 sub-menus.

Except you don't need to scroll or check submenus.

Even on a fixed 1024x768 resolution you have more than enough vertical space to never need to scroll in a decent CRPG, and enough horizontal space to have many columns with all essential info ready to be ordered by whatever parameter you desire.

I've been debunking that shitty argument based on bad implementations long before you were born.

 

[Llama-Yak Hybrid]

Even on a fixed 1024x768 resolution you have more than enough vertical space to never need to scroll in a decent CRPG

Yeah, except in reality it ends up like this:

And mind you that this is modded.

Or if you're offended by popamole garbage you play whole the time:

Because surprise, surprise, you can design list-based inventories to use 6px fonts and therefore allow for 50+ records in 768 vertical space, but in reality you'll use 16 or even 20.

Meanwhile grid inventory, not grid as in inventory tetris-like(which as I've said is meant to simulate how backpack works):

It takes very minimal part of the screen(the height of the pic is 950 px, it's like a 3rd of it) and already holds 12*7 = 84 items. Meanwhile I was talking about having list inventory screen cover whole 768 px vertically with very small font size having 50+ records, to be more precise for 6px font with 3px big interline between records(come on...) you have 65,5 records. Now I know several webmasters and none of them uses fonts smaller than 11px, and for such things they would use 16 and bigger interlines, so prepare for no more than 30 records.

Grid is always more efficient way of building equipments, because it uses 2 planes instead of one, I don't even know how the hell can you argue otherwise.

The tetris-like inventories, as I've said, outside of using that property are there too simulate inventory space(as opposed to weight only).

 

[Excidium II]

Be less of a newfag thx. Your post is exactly like Grunker which I owned long ago over this same argument.

 

[Excidium II]

It takes very minimal part of the screen(the height of the pic is 950 px, it's like a 3rd of it) and already holds 12*7 = 84 items. Meanwhile I was talking about having list inventory screen cover whole 768 px vertically with very small font size having 50+ records, to be more precise for 6px font with 3px big interline between records(come on...) you have 65,5 records. Now I know several webmasters and none of them uses fonts smaller than 11px, and for such things they would use 16 and bigger interlines, so prepare for no more than 30 records.

You know several cretins like yourself. Who the fuck cares that you can show ten billion icons? Nobody will feasibly carry all that shit in a good CRPG, plus you seem to happily ignore the fact it's just a shity picture, you have to mouseover to see wtf it is. Unlike with a list where all important information will be available at a glance.

Congratulations by the way on picking such a horrible trainwreck of an UI to showcase a good icon inventory.

 

[Llama-Yak Hybrid]

Nice lalalalala I can't hear you, faggot.

 

[Excidium II]

Nice lalalalala I can't hear you, faggot.

I ended up responding because why not, another newfag will make the exact same stupid argument for icon inventory in two weeks.

 

[Tito Anic]

Tried "Void Pyramid": exploration and art design look interesting - great find.

you're forgetting one thing tho: sword and sorcery is a much better game than anything vogel has ever produced in entire fucking life.