Obsidian General Discussion Thread

[Roguey]

The mark of a true nerd is wearing the same clothes for more than a decade.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Christ Almighty, Leon, you're loaded.

You should know about that

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

In almost all instances where I asked in the past year, Obsidian had wanted to keep the developers who recently left (I didn't ask or already knew about the older ones). I think lack of promotion factored pretty strongly into a number of them (or promotions offered, then refused).

To explain contracting and its relevance here: So there are similar instances where Obsidian may want to let someone go (or a developer may want to resign or retire), but the company instead offers to move that person to contract (like they did with me) so they don't actually have to say they let anyone go or someone has "left", they can simply choose not to renew a contract later on - as an example, I believe Indiana has started (or already has) cancelled their outsourcing contracts with ex-Obsidian employees, so now some of them are looking for work or are off pursuing their own interests, but it's not something you could legitimately call a downsizing/layoff/what-have-you when it's a contracting relationship. Semantics for the win, I guess.

They have definately lost some good and talented people during this year. I would imagine it's hard to keep everyone happy at a company that has very limited Lead positions and with the very limited budget you have to consider how many people you can promote to senior status. Though I believe the lack of promotions is something that Obsidian has been critized on Glassdoor. Instead of promoting their own staff, they will hire seniors from outside of the company.
I can see benefits from a managerial point of view when you hire people outside of the company. You get more talent and fresh ideas into the company, but at the same time you will disappoint people who've sweat their asses off for the company and some of them will leave when the opportunity of an promotion goes by. It's not like there's a lack of gaming jobs in California area, if you don't get Lead/Senior position at your current company, you can probably get it from someplace else.

How often is that "contract work" method used? I've seen some of Obsidian's artists working as freelancers and I believe Andrew Dearing (the sound guy from AP) has his own shop as well nowadays. How easily can you cancel such an outsourcing contract? Just wondering on the job security for people on such contracts.
From the companys pov that's a great way to do business. Not probably the most ethical way to do business, but gaming industry and ethics don't really walk hand in hand.

This is not a problem limited to gaming industry. Contract work is becoming more popular with every passing year, while typical employment contracts are being phased out. And the goal is always the same, to bypass labor laws and protections. Entry-level warehouse jobs give people "0 hour contract", where you're not guaranteed any work whatsoever, but have to be on call at moment's notice. I've heard of store chains where to get hired you need to set up your own company and then they "contract" your services through that company. You're just a store clerk, but in legal terms you're an entrepreneur, so you have no labor rights whatsoever.

Obviously some professions are better suited for that sort of arrangement. Artists, photographers, or being a human stretch goal. But having a regular 9-5 worker on a contract is pure and utter bullshit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

This is not a problem limited to gaming industry. Contract work is becoming more popular with every passing year, while typical employment contracts are being phased out. And the goal is always the same, to bypass labor laws and protections. Entry-level warehouse jobs give people "0 hour contract", where you're not guaranteed any work whatsoever, but have to be on call at moment's notice. I've heard of store chains where to get hired you need to set up your own company and then they "contract" your services through that company. You're just a store clerk, but in legal terms you're an entrepreneur, so you have no labor rights whatsoever.

Obviously some professions are better suited for that sort of arrangement. Artists, photographers, or being a human stretch goal. But having a regular 9-5 worker on a contract is pure and utter bullshit.

on this note, minimum wage employers(in USA) have managed to completely get around labor laws by simply cutting all workers to part-time and doubling the number of workers
working 'full-time' at low wages is essentially working 2-3 part-time jobs with constant schedule conflicts, no set hours, etc.,

then when you move up the ladder you have H1b and various other visa abuse where the employees are essentially owned by the employer.

 

[Chris Avellone]

They have definately lost some good and talented people during this year. I would imagine it's hard to keep everyone happy at a company that has very limited Lead positions and with the very limited budget you have to consider how many people you can promote to senior status.

Agreed. It's a challenge when people want more responsibility and promotions, but there's not enough projects/slots.

This isn't a problem confined to Obs., though - Naughty Dog has that challenge, for example, and so do a lot of studios - the leads and senior levels are entrenched.

Though I believe the lack of promotions is something that Obsidian has been critized on Glassdoor. Instead of promoting their own staff, they will hire seniors from outside of the company.

Yeah, and that can lead to a lot of resentment, even more so if those seniors don't work out - or the seniors remain, but don't do a good job. (If their paycheck is exposed, that can also be salt in the wounds to existing employees.)

But sometimes, the lack of promotion only had to be something simple (say junior to intermediate, or leading a sub-department, or intermediate to senior - finding roles for seniors isn't as tough as a lead or sub-lead).

It can be even worse if you give your resignation letter and then they offer you a promotion - you shouldn't have to resign for someone to say, "what can I give you to stay?" They should offer it before then. (All the answers to the question I just asked were, "you can't give me anything, you should have offered before it got to this," and it was more telling that they'd been clear about wanting to switch positions or get more responsibility - but no action or acknowledgement was ever given - or worse, it was offered, then taken away.)

I can see benefits from a managerial point of view when you hire people outside of the company.

Completely agree - in fact, hiring devs who'd had experience at other companies I think helped Obs. avoid being completely Black Isle Ver.2 (in a good way) - when they were listened to, or when that had a chance to take the reins on something and show a new way of making a feature happen.

You get more talent and fresh ideas into the company, but at the same time you will disappoint people who've sweat their asses off for the company and some of them will leave when the opportunity of an promotion goes by. It's not like there's a lack of gaming jobs in California area, if you don't get Lead/Senior position at your current company, you can probably get it from someplace else.

This is partially true, but less true in the past year with the mass layoffs at various companies (Carbine, Trion, Telltale, etc.) - I haven't seen the full fallout of these layoffs, but I imagine what jobs were available had no lack of candidates.

But you're right in that SoCal is considered a "hub" of gaming (Orange County moreso than Los Angeles, from my perspective). It's good in that most people don't have the freedom to move, especially if they have family and their kids are in school, they've bought a house, they have a lease, etc.

How often is that "contract work" method used? I've seen some of Obsidian's artists working as freelancers and I believe Andrew Dearing (the sound guy from AP) has his own shop as well nowadays. How easily can you cancel such an outsourcing contract? Just wondering on the job security for people on such contracts.
From the companys pov that's a great way to do business. Not probably the most ethical way to do business, but gaming industry and ethics don't really walk hand in hand.

Contract employees aren't a bad thing at all. One advantage is you're effectively "pre-firing" them by only keeping them on for X months, which is normal - and the contractor's expectations are set that at that date, they'll need to find employment elsewhere.

I don't have metrics for how often it's used, but I don't object to the process unless (1) it's obfuscating something else, or (2) more seriously, if there's a chance a contract can be renewed, but an open question as to whether that will happen, especially if the employee really needs the job (we had at least one developer with a family who felt under-the-gun because he was hoping for a renewal... but as the time drew close, he wasn't getting answers on it - I don't know what happened to him).

In practice, if a contractor is hoping for a renewal (or graduation to full-time employment), you should try and let them know at least 6 weeks before the end if that's a reality or not, but don't leave them hanging (my preference is you'd try to give them 3 months notice since interviewing for a game dev job can take forever, but that amount of time I think is naive of me to suggest and definitely hard to do in every circumstance).

Most of the examples of this I saw, however, managers just sat on the question or ignored it (either because they forgot, were busy, or it wasn't high priority) - sometimes they would still be hanging within a week of the person having to leave, which is irresponsible.

 

[Infinitron]

Finally, Part 5 of the Josh interview: https://talkingames.com/josh-sawyer-chapter-v/

Talks about his historical RPG ideas. Namedrops AoD and Dungeon Rats! Vault Dweller Also, cycling.

 

[Nano]

Though I believe the lack of promotions is something that Obsidian has been critized on Glassdoor. Instead of promoting their own staff, they will hire seniors from outside of the company.

This is what happened with John Gonzalez, by the way. Back in late 2008, the Aliens RPG didn't have anyone assigned to the lead writer job. Instead of giving it to Eric Fenstermaker who had been at Obsidian since 2005 and was already on Aliens's writing team, they instead hired Gonzalez for the job. When Aliens was canned and they got the New Vegas gig, Gonzalez was the lead writer again and Fenstermaker was still answering to him.

I'm betting this is related to the conflict between Gonzalez and Fenstermaker that Chris Avellone talked about a while back.

 

[Mustawd]

Obviously some professions are better suited for that sort of arrangement. Artists, photographers, or being a human stretch goal. But having a regular 9-5 worker on a contract is pure and utter bullshit.

Not really. It gives you a ton of flexibility as a company to increase your workfroce as needed.

There’s no bullshit part about it IMO in a general sense.

What DOES sound like bullshit is what MCA described in terms of making an employee a contractor so they can save face and can them later. Although, wtf is the employee taking that offer in a long term sense is a better question. If it was me I’d accept the offer and start looking for new work right away.

 

[Roguey]

Back in late 2008, the Aliens RPG didn't have anyone assigned to the lead writer job. Instead of giving it to Eric Fenstermaker who had been at Obsidian since 2005 and was already on Aliens's writing team, they instead hired Gonzalez for the job.

Sawyer and Avellone were also creative leads on Aliens during its development. What a mess that must have been.

 

[Nano]

Back in late 2008, the Aliens RPG didn't have anyone assigned to the lead writer job. Instead of giving it to Eric Fenstermaker who had been at Obsidian since 2005 and was already on Aliens's writing team, they instead hired Gonzalez for the job.

Sawyer and Avellone were also creative leads on Aliens during its development. What a mess that must have been.

Yeah. Short timeline of events:

• Late 2006: Obsidian gets the Aliens job. Sawyer is lead designer, MCA is creative lead.
• Early 2008: MCA leaves Aliens so he can get Alpha Protocol out of its development hell, Sawyer takes up the mantle of creative lead.
• Late 2008: Sawyer decides he has too much on his plate as-is, wants to get someone else to be the lead writer, Gonzalez is hired.
• Early 2009: Aliens is canceled, layoffs at Obsidian, and they get the New Vegas job shortly afterwards.

Sega really made the right call when they cancelled Aliens instead of Alpha Protocol.

 

[Quillon]

Sega really made the right call when they cancelled Aliens instead of Alpha Protocol.

Apparently Aliens' development was further along than AP at the time. Tho I'd also have picked AP cos its a modern day RPG without fooking magic in it, there ain't no other yet.

 

[Zed Duke of Banville]

Talks about his historical RPG ideas. Namedrops AoD and Dungeon Rats!.

Josh Sawyer has played Dungeon Rats but not Age of Decadence.

Spoiler

The interviewer referred to "RPG games".

 

[Chris Avellone]

Apparently Aliens' development was further along than AP at the time. Tho I'd also have picked AP cos its a modern day RPG without fooking magic in it, there ain't no other yet.

I don't know how that story got started, but it's not true - Aliens was a barely-playable 3 level (if that) demo, although I thought the levels looked and played decent - although if you wanted to break it while playing it, it was pretty easy to get it to crash if you didn't follow the flow of the demo.

(On a random note, the voice-acting direction was garbage and not well thought-out, so a lot of characters I thought I would have liked from their description instantly became hated when I played it.)

Not a ton was done on Aliens when it was cancelled. SEGA, business-wise, made the right call at that moment b/c Alpha Protocol (unfortunately) was farther along. I am somewhat depressed because Chris Parker, who was responsible for AP's progress, had not been properly overseeing Alpha Protocol to see how much it was falling apart (he had delegated to others, and we quickly found it had become directionless).

 

[Latelistener]

Not a ton was done on Aliens when it was cancelled. SEGA, business-wise, made the right call at that moment b/c Alpha Protocol (unfortunately) was farther along. I am somewhat depressed because Chris Parker, who was responsible for AP's progress, had not been properly overseeing Alpha Protocol to see how much it was falling apart (he had delegated to others, and we quickly found it had become directionless).

This is a talent. Alpha Protocol managed to be a better game than Mass Effect while being a headless chicken.

It has an actual non-linearity and stealth. I also managed to complete it with 0 (zero) kills. Although a few characters will die in cutscenes (whether you have a choice or not), they do not count. I can only imagine what you could have done with a proper lead.

 

[Safav Hamon]

If Feargus doesn't let him make that game, he should quit and form his own company.

 

[LESS T_T]

In 2020, Microsoft and Obsidian announce Age of Mythology Adventure, a historical fantasy RPG spin-off directed by Josh Sawyer.

 

[Roguey]

Josh Sawyer has played Dungeon Rats but not Age of Decadence.

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing both in his Steam account, but he spent more time on Dungeon Rats. Combat games>CYOA

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

CYOA

Oh boy, wait till Goral sees this.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Josh Sawyer has played Dungeon Rats but not Age of Decadence.

I'm pretty sure I remember seeing both in his Steam account, but he spent more time on Dungeon Rats. Combat games>CYOA

CYOA

Oh boy, wait till Goral sees this.

What do you think keeps me playing Deadfire? It's the combat and builds, definitely not the story and quests, lol.

 

[Prime Junta]

you forgot to mention him

Goral

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

You lads have fun, I'll be in my bunker preparing for nuclear fallout.

 

[Cyberarmy]

 

[Dodo1610]

In 2020, Microsoft and Obsidian announce Age of Mythology Adventure, a historical fantasy RPG spin-off directed by Josh Sawyer.

I would buy that, I loved Age of Mythology. More games should combine Nordic, Greek and Egyptian mythology.

 

[lophiaspis]

There's something I really like about playing Teutonic Knights; having all my Teutonic Knights in their blue capes walking across the battlefield, very slowly with a bunch of priests behind them.

FreeKaner

 

[FreeKaner]

There's something I really like about playing Teutonic Knights; having all my Teutonic Knights in their blue capes walking across the battlefield, very slowly with a bunch of priests behind them.

FreeKaner

As I said, Sawyer doesn't even try to hide his convictions or intentions, he is out in the open with them and at this point is trying to pull people to his side. Which is not surprising after he dropped the symbolism and metaphors in his previous games to set the stage for next phase. If and when he gets to create his historical game set in Holy Roman Empire, possibly as a religious knight slaughtering pagans, Slavs and other alleged undesirable according to his Atlanto-Hyperborean worldview he will reach his last phase. Which is outright radicalisation for Aryan Germanic supremacy, and today more than ever the gamers are already willing to accept this ideology. He is fully aware that the circumstances are ripe to revive and spread his austrofascism.