Official RPG Codex Discord Server

  1. Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
    Dismiss Notice

Company News Obsidian is hiring again = RPG overload

Discussion in 'News & Content Feedback' started by Vault Dweller, May 19, 2006.

  1. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

    Volourn
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    22,140
    " I don't think either BG game had as much dialogue or as well-written dialogue as Fallout or either KOTOR game."

    Quality wise you could make ana rgument; but quantity wise, the BG series had LOTS of dialogue.

    I do agree that comparitively speaking, BG1 isn't in the other games' league as far as quality dialogue is concerned. But, BG2 on the other hand, does have as good dialogue as the other two games though again not as open ended as FO's was nor did it have skill use in dialogue as a manner of course ala FO or KOTOR (the one big improvement for BIO dialogue wise from their earlier games)...
     
    ^ Top  
  2. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,903
    No, and so what? I was referring to his dumbassed statement that:

    - and to the comment and inference that its somehow wrong, biased or 'elite' for this site to spend less discussion on the latter - ie not discussing jrpgs is some great big fucking sin. You will note that he makes a blanket comment ("by strict definition") to which your example of BaK is irrelevant.

    So you love Morrowind. I'm very happy for you. But to have any relevance here, you must be suggesting that Morrowind is evidence for Fallout 3 not sucking. Which is quite objectively wrong, and rather stupid to boot.

    Goodness sakes man. No-one is saying they 'know'. What's with all the goddam straw men? What we are saying is that the evidence very strongly points to Fallout 3 being doomed to suckage. If you know what makes Fallout such a good RPG, and you are familiar with what Bethesda do, you will come to the same conclusion.

    What relevance does that have here? Why was 'everyone' saying MP was going to suck - was it because of a proven track record of suckiness by the developer, of tearing up what was good in other IPs it possessed, and no indication whatsoever of a desire to change?

    What are you, Tintin's alt?
     
    ^ Top  
  3. ad hominem Scholar

    ad hominem
    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    413
    Location:
    Here, there, and everywhere
    @Twinfalls,

    Did you wake up on the angry cunt side of bed this morning or something? I was writing in response to Keldryn's post, and therefore limited the scope to what he was originally espousing. Do we need to have discussion on the meaning of context? I don't really care what gets discussed here; I registered here, but I'm not so stupid as to try and change the hive mind.
     
    ^ Top  
  4. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    27,772
    I didn't say that all action RPGs are shallow. The questions was "Also, how many "action RPGs" can you name that have the depth of the Gothic series?" The answer is very few. Certainly not Deus Ex, Jade Empire, Arx or even System Shock 2. Not sure about Bloodlines with its little claustrofobic hubs and few NPCs. I wouldn't consider UU an action RPG. Every RPG has combat that usually plays a large role, which doesn't make each game an action game. And as for The Elder Scrolls, that's too generic. DF had plenty of depth, MW had some, and OB is a shooter.

    Open-ended is not a synonym of depth.

    Good for you. You've just joined a very exclusive club of people who actually liked DX2. Try Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel next. I've heard it's pretty good and as compelling as the original game.

    From that list, the only game that had some real choices is Chrono Trigger and that is a very, very, very, very old game. The rest of the post is amusing to say the least. Some memorable quotes:

    And so on, and so on. Sounds like you enjoy exploring and upgrading your character more than you enjoy role-playing, which is fine. Let's not confuse adventure / character upgrade aspects of games with role-playing aspects though.
     
    ^ Top  
  5. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

    Volourn
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    22,140
    "The questions was "Also, how many "action RPGs" can you name that have the depth of the Gothic series?" The answer is very few. Certainly not Deus Ex, Jade Empire, Arx or even System Shock 2."

    Jade Empire is deeper than the Gothic series. Hell, it's deeper than most RPGs. Period.

    Of cours,e some lameo will point at JE's 'inventory' system and will say that's 'proof' that it's not deep. However, I'd argue that inventory tetris ala KOTOR or FO is NOT depth. :roll:
     
    ^ Top  
  6. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,319
    You are so funny Volourn ... you dont even know what "Inventory Tetris" means.
     
    ^ Top  
  7. Rhombus Liturgist

    Rhombus
    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2002
    Messages:
    182
    Location:
    In my head.
    NWN style right?

    Fallout didn't have it.. there it was just weight..

    Did I get it right?.. :?
     
    ^ Top  
  8. Volourn Pretty Princess Pretty Princess

    Volourn
    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    22,140
    "You are so funny Volourn ... you dont even know what "Inventory Tetris" means."

    Sure, I do. While Kotor's inventory may not force one to rearrange the inventory in blocks ala NWN, BG, or Diablo; there is still a mlot of 'messing around with inventory for no good reason'. In fact it does it worse. Because the inventory is such a mess that it's like playing tetris 'cause you spend have your time rearranging your inventory so it's a tad more logical. The stupid holodisks or whatever they were were a great example of it.

    Inventory tetris may be a term that wasn't created for a KOTOR type inventory; but it sure as hell fits it.


    Game over, POR2 Lover. :twisted:
     
    ^ Top  
  9. Twinfalls Erudite

    Twinfalls
    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,903
    :D
     
    ^ Top  
  10. Hazelnut Erudite

    Hazelnut
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    UK
    Jeezus you can be so needlessly patronising VD. He's only a few hours in and my guess is that he'll need to play a lot more to see the shallowness - I know I did because I really wanted it be be as good for me as the original was. At the end of the day there is no one idiotic thing which they changed that ruined it on it's own, it was simply the weight of so many little idiocies.

    Smile.

    :D
     
    ^ Top  
  11. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    27,772
    Well, if he's only a few hours in, perhaps, he should play the game a bit more before he starts making "as good as the original!" statements, no? Am I missing something here?

    I've seen many people who have succesfully ignored huge design flaws only because they really wanted [insert the name of a particularly crappy title] to be good.
     
    ^ Top  
  12. Hazelnut Erudite

    Hazelnut
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    UK
    Yep he said "but I'm finding it just as compelling" rather than "as good as the original!" - doesn't sound like he has closed his mind yet, but then I'm a generous good natured person.. isn't this where I'm supposed to cast some aspersions about your reading comprehention abilities? :lol:

    I've been guilty of that to a lesser degree I think. Usually there has been something of worth there that can be enjoyed though, even if it doesn't satisfy all the pure RPG requirements.
     
    ^ Top  
  13. Vault Dweller Commissar, Red Star Studio Developer

    Vault Dweller
    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    27,772
    Be my guest. Imo, trying to differentiate between compelling and good is splitting hair.
     
    ^ Top  
  14. Hazelnut Erudite

    Hazelnut
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    UK
    Oh dear. :? This from the man who spits out reading comprehension put downs regularly. You must be working too hard on AoD I reckon - which is a good thing by the way. :)

    Anyway, the difference to my mind is quite large and revolves around the word 'finding' rather than 'compelling'. :cool:
     
    ^ Top  
  15. ad hominem Scholar

    ad hominem
    Joined:
    May 10, 2006
    Messages:
    413
    Location:
    Here, there, and everywhere
    I split hair all the time. It's called a part. Now splitting hairs, or splitting a hair, that's more like it.

    :D
     
    ^ Top  
  16. TheGreatGodPan Arbiter

    TheGreatGodPan
    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2005
    Messages:
    1,762
    I'm not familiar with any PC RPG that forces you into a battle that cannot be lost. Admittedly, I've played fewer than just about anybody on this board.

    Skies did seem too upbeat to me (pirates should be more yarr than tee-hee), but I agree that angsty characters are just annoying. The Nameless One doesn't count, and you can play him as you want, to a degree.
     
    ^ Top  
  17. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    My example of Betryal at Krondor is not irrelevant. He stated that this forum either dismisses or outright ignores the games where the character's role is pre-determined. And yes, most Japanse RPGs fall into this category. I was only trying to make the point that BaK seems to be highly praised, despite the fact that it is just as limiting in terms of pre-defined characters as any JRPG. If the type of RPG that JRPGs represent are not what this forum likes to dicuss, then a game like BaK shouldn't be either.

    As to whether it's elitist... well, the name of the site is "RPGCodex," not "Open-Ended Non-Linear RPGs Where You Create Your Own Character Codex." Oh, and I'm pretty sure it isn't called "RPGs that Twinfalls and Vault Dweller Like Codex." :p


    Err, I didn't say I love Morrowind. I don't love Morrowind. I can enjoy it in small doses, but I still find it to be rather dull, repetitive and soulless. It just happens that it is far less dull, repetitive, and soulless than Daggerfall, in my opinion. I wasn't using Morrowind for evidence of Fallout 3 not sucking; you were asserting that the Bethesda that made Morrowind and Oblivion is incapable of making a good RPG... The tone of your commments, plus what I've read from other posts of yours, indicate that the Bethesda that made Daggerfall knew how to make good RPGs. And I'm disagreeing with that. I think that Daggerfall was more poorly designed than Morrowind in nearly every aspect.

    Also, that Morrowind is evidence for Fallout 3 not sucking is "objectively wrong." But it is also objectively wrong, and rather stupid to boot, to assert that Morrowind and Oblivion are evidence for Fallout 3 sucking.

    Guess you're wrong then. I am quite aware of what makes Fallout a good RPG, and I am familiar with the games that Bethesda has made. But I'm not coming to the same conclusion. Why?

    Because Bethesda hasn't made a Fallout game yet. They have made Elder Scrolls games. And the Elder Scrolls games all share a number of aspects and design philosophies with each other. And much of that is what I don't care for in the Elder Scrolls games. I like large worlds to explore, but I find ES games worlds too large and sprawling. The games have never felt lovingly crafted to me. Everything feels very big and impersonal. Characters are repetitive, landscapes are repetitive, quests are repetitive. One of the guiding principles of the ES games is to present a fantasy world on a massive scale, where we're not talking about a dozen towns, a couple hundred NPCs, and such. It is difficult to build games on that scale and maintain the same touch that you find in games like Ultima VII, Serpent Isle, PS: Torment, or even Fallout. And that's what I find unappealing about The Elder Scrolls, and what stand out as weaknesses of the series in my mind are usually directly related to the scale of the game. Yes, this is relevant...

    Bethedsa hasn't tried to make a game like Fallout yet. The Elder Scrolls are a very particular type of RPG, and that's what they have focused on -- a type of game that I find to be inherently flawed. Whether they pull off the ES games well or not is sort of irrelevant to me, because we're not talking about The Post-Nuclear Scrolls here; we're talking about Fallout. Chances are, many of the designers at Bethesda have played and enjoyed Fallout. They haven't made the ES games more like Fallout because that's not the type of game that TES has ever been. If they'd already tried to make a game like Fallout and screwed it up, then I would be more willing to predict that Fallout 3 will suck. But I haven't seen them try to make that type of game yet, so I'm withholding judgement until I know more.

    It is relevant simply because people were saying it was going to suck without knowing anything about the game other than it would be 3D and play from a first-person view. (The original Metroid games were 2D side-scrolling action/adventure games) Retro Studios was developing it, and they were more or less unknown -- the fact that it was an American developer and not a Japanese developer was all the more reason for many to say it would suck. It's just an example of fans of an existing franchise jumping to conlusions about how the new installment will suck because a different company is making and "they're turning it into a first-person shooter!!"

    Who the hell is Tintin?
     
    ^ Top  
  18. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    No, I don't. I'm not confusing exploring and character upgrading aspects of the game with role-playing aspects. In that FFX example, I said that it looks pretty shallow, being extremely linear without any real choices to make in terms of story progression. But that, unlike a lot of JRPGs, it actually have a very deep and flexible character advancement system. Of course that isn't a role-playing aspect, but nowhere in this discussion was it stated that we were talking only about "depth of role-playing aspects." We were talking about Gothic as an action RPG and of the depth of the series, and Gothic's open-ended exploration and character advancement system are but two of many aspects that give the game its depth.

    I bring up console RPGs in these discussions because I think they get treated a little unfairly here. Not the least of which are the constant "consoles are for stupid lowest-common-denomenator ADD kids" type of comments. Those games certainly deserve some criticism for the linear gameplay and lack of meaningful choices, but there are good aspects to some of those games as well, and some of which show a surprising amount of depth. I don't see anything wrong with bringing some new suggestions to the table. "Hey, you don't normally seem to like these kinds of games, but you might like this one if you give it a fair try."
     
    ^ Top  
  19. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    So, if I don't see this shallowness once I've played through the game, does that make me a bad person. :D

    I've hit the Arcology in New Cairo now, and still finding it very engrossing. There really has been very little for me to complain about so far. The only thing I'm really missing from the first game is the ability to log into all of the computer terminals and read peoples' e-mail. But that's not a huge deal. Well, and the loading times are kind of long, but I am playing the Xbox version and not the PC version. I remember on my old Pentium II system, the original Deus Ex has excrucatingly long load times -- as does the PS2 version. Load times are non-existent on my current PC though.
     
    ^ Top  
  20. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm allowed to have an opinion after playing a few hours, and I'm allowed to compare it to the original, which seems like the logical thing to do.

    I wrote "I'm only a few hours into Invisible War, but I'm finding it just as compelling as the original Deus Ex ..." Is it really necessary for me to put in the disclaimer "but I haven't finished it yet so my opinion may change?"

    I think that goes without saying.

    But if it makes you less grumpy,

    I am only about 9 hours into Invisible War, but SO FAR I'm finding it just as compelling as the original Deus Ex."

    *ahem*UltimaIX*ahem*

    No matter how much I wanted to like that game, the more of it I played, the more its flaws became apparent.
     
    ^ Top  
  21. FrancoTAU Cipher

    FrancoTAU
    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2005
    Messages:
    2,507
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Okay, where are you seeing U9 supporters? I've never seen that game praised. Hell, i'm a huge Ultima fanboy and I've never had the courage to even play it for fear of ruining my appreciation of the series.
     
    ^ Top  
  22. Hazelnut Erudite

    Hazelnut
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2002
    Messages:
    1,490
    Location:
    UK
    Nope, I wont care one little bit. I will, however, be surprised given what I've seen of your postings. I also spent several hours (it was a while back) enjoyably playing before all of the changes and 'idiocies' (IMHO, but a bad choice of word) in the design suddenly seemed to have formed an army to stop me from enjoying it. I can't think of any one thing that did this, but I think it was when I'd decided to fuck over one of the factions, who then didn't care, that really did it for me. I may well not have been as forgiving as when I played the first game, and I am absolutely sure that the loading times, which were an issue for both games, were completely crippling for me given the smaller areas.
     
    ^ Top  
  23. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    They're around. We have one amongst our regulars at the Horizons Tavern that absolutely adores it -- and he's a longtime fan of the series. There were quite a few supporters on the old Wayward Avatar forums too, but I think those are gone now.

    Quite a few people who either didn't play the earlier Ultimas or only played one or two of them a little like Ultima IX.

    Six years after the fact, I can actually look at the game for what it is, and not keep getting stuck on how it wasn't what I expected and wanted it to be. There are some things that it does well. Still a lot of things that suck about it, but it does have some redeeming features, and can be somewhat enjoyable to play, in an Ocarina-of-Time-knockoffish way. The story still sucks, the dialogue is terrible, the voice acting is terrible, and the game is too linear, but it does have a lot of fantastic worldbuilding. It is fun to explore the landscape (the parts that are available to you that is), and there are a lot of cool little things to discover that are totally unrelated to the story. That part is very Ultimaish, at least. Unfortuntely, it will forever be a terrible conclusion to the story arc that was building in The Black Gate - Labyrith of Worlds - Serpent Isle - Pagan. But given that it was put on indefinite hold at one point, and was re-designed at least twice, it isn't surprising how it turned out.
     
    ^ Top  
  24. Keldryn Arcane

    Keldryn
    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    1,053
    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Well, we'll see. I'm having a great time with it so far. I might have seen a little about what you're talking about with the factions though. I didn't kill the scientist who created the Mag Rail (as instructed by the Order) and took the gun for myself, allowing the WTO to gain the schematics. The Order contacted me right after that and said that I would be forgiven for my betrayal if I accomplished this other task in Cairo for them... It does strain believability a bit, but I guess the designers didn't want to limit your options too early in the game. And I can appreciate that. I understand the point of view that holds that it creates opportunities for replayability if you are presented with mutually-exclusive options, but I don't mind if you can do almost everything in one playthrough, as I don't have time to play through all the games that I have, never mind play through some of them multiple times.

    I played through half of the first Deus Ex on the PS2 when my wrists were too sore to use the computer, so maybe I got used to those loading times enough that IW's loading times aren't ruining the game for me.
     
    ^ Top  
  25. Drakron Arcane

    Drakron
    Joined:
    May 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,319
    You can betray then again and again and they will always forgive you, only in the last mission but guess what?

    You can betray then again.
     
    ^ Top  

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.