Keldryn said:
There are many "action RPGs" with depth. Deus Ex. Jade Empire. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines. Ultima Underworld. Ultima Underworld II. Arx Fatalis. The Elder Scrolls. System Shock 2. Are they as deep as the Gothic series? I would say so. Obviously, Gothic has aspects that the other games don't -- NPC schedules come to mind -- but the other games, in turn, have aspects that Gohtic doesn't have. I wouldn't consider any of the games that I just listed as shallow.
I didn't say that all action RPGs are shallow.
No, but I think there is a definite connotation here that they are. Especially when people define "action" RPGs as being about combat and lacking choices.
The questions was "Also, how many "action RPGs" can you name that have the depth of the Gothic series?" The answer is very few. Certainly not Deus Ex, Jade Empire, Arx or even System Shock 2.
Probably not Arx, but I haven't played it enough. I would argue that Deus Ex and Jade Empire come close; I haven't played through enough of SS2 to say for certain. But it also depends on what criteria you are using to judge the "depth" of the Gothic series.
Not sure about Bloodlines with its little claustrofobic hubs and few NPCs. I wouldn't consider UU an action RPG. Every RPG has combat that usually plays a large role, which doesn't make each game an action game. And as for The Elder Scrolls, that's too generic. DF had plenty of depth, MW had some, and OB is a shooter.
Ultima Underworld is as much of an action RPG as System Shock 2, Deus Ex, or Gothic. The combat takes place in real-time, you have direct control over your character's actions, and you initiate each action singularly in real-time. The player's skill is a significant determinant of the outcome of combat. That sounds like an action game to me. The term "action game" is not mutually exclusive with deep, intelligent, meaningful content.
Open-ended is not a synonym of depth.
No, it isn't in and of itself. But if you take the open-ended gameplay aspect out of Gothic, how exactly does it possess more depth than Deux Ex, for example?
Good for you. You've just joined a very exclusive club of people who actually liked DX2. Try Fallout: Brotherhood of Steel next. I've heard it's pretty good and as compelling as the original game.
Yeah, not even a remotely relevant comparison. Fallout:BoS wasn't made by the same people who made Fallout, and there was no intent to build anything upon the orignial game design. It wasn't a sequel, just some quick one-off to make money using that Dark Alliance Engine.
Invisible War is a proper sequel to Deus Ex, and it builds on the design of the first game. Yes, some things have been streamlined from the first game. There is no skill system, but a slightly more involved augmentation system than the first game. The area maps are not quite as wide-open and are split into smaller zones. Instead of many types of ammo, there is a universal ammo. However, I'm not sure why that universal ammo is such a sticking point of the anally retentive. In the first game, one of your augmentations was able to construct a flying spy drone from nanites, complete with an EMP attack and remote control. Yet these same nanites can't synthesize projectiles? Give me a break.
If these things can ruin your enjoyment of a game, then you're placing an undue emphasis on aspects of the game that are trivial. So far, DX2 has a deep and involving storyline, and offers a lot more choices to make than did the first game. So... everyone on this board harps about how important meaningful choices are in an RPG, and when Invisible War focuses intently on such choices, it gets ripped apart because it doesn't use skill points and different ammo types. Cool.
<...long speech about how awesome console games are...>
No, a long list of recommendations of some of my favourite console titles that open-minded Codexers might enjoy.
So I quite enjoyed the 18 to 20 hours that I spent with Fable... it kind of sucks being limited to walking on the paths. But there is still a lot of freedom to wander about, many choices to make in character development, and many fun ways to just play in the sandbox.
Yeah, so? You're harping on the fact that you can't stray too far from the path, on the principle of it. But there isn't anywhere in the world that the paths don't go, there isn't anything you can't reach. It would be nice to be able to stomp on the flowers, but it isn't game-breaking. There's still a lot of fun, free-form gameplay to be had. While, intellectually, I would like to be able to walk off the damn path onto that patch of grass, it wouldn't actually add that much to the gameplay itself. If the world were a continuous map and not a number of connected nodes, then it would be a lot more limiting. Given the nodelike structure of the world, however, it doesn't really limit what you can do.
Doesn't feel any different than wandering around outdoors in Wizardry VII, actually. A lot of the older 3D RPGs had outdoor areas that were basically dungeon passages with a dirt floor and trees painted on the walls.
Phantasy Star III... at the end of the first two generations, you had to choose which of two women your character would marry. Thus, you played 3 of 7 possible protagonists in one playthrough of the game. Unfortunately, a lot of the events in each generation didn't really change that much, or only occurred in a different order.
I'm not entirely sure why you think that throwing this in my face proves a point. I mentioned it because I thought it was a pretty cool concept. I didn't say it was without flaws, and I came right out and specified what the flaw was. What is the point in underlining it?
Even a game like Final Fantasy X possesses a lot more depth... It's an extremely linear game that doesn't give you any real choices as to how the story progresses. However, the game does possess a remarkably deep character advancement system that really does allow for a lot of choices as to how to customize your character.
And so on, and so on. Sounds like you enjoy exploring and upgrading your character more than you enjoy role-playing, which is fine. Let's not confuse adventure / character upgrade aspects of games with role-playing aspects though.
