Interview Obsidian Media Blitz: Josh Sawyer and Feargus Urquhart Interviews

[Prime Junta]

Take Thieves, all their skills, all their unique approaches to world, all the places where they can shine, all abandoned in favour of being more useful in combat and being made into another type of fighter.

I agree, rogues were an entirely dispensable class in P1.

These exceptions aside, however, class differentiation in Pillars was exceptionally good. They really do play differently, and your party composition dramatically affects the tactics at your disposal.

The thing with (A)D&D thieves is that outside a tabletop game, or a game specifically crafted for them, they kinda suck. They shine out of combat, and if a game doesn't have a lot of out-of-combat content, they're just deadweight. None of the party-based D&D computer games did.* Josh did the right thing by not cloning AD&D thieves in a game that didn't have the content to support them.

*Okay, partial exception for Storm of Zehir. That really did squeeze maximum mileage out of non-combat skills.

 

[Rev]

Avellone has his Planescape: Torment, Tim Cain has his Fallout, and Josh Sawyer has his... Icewind Dale?

Sawyer has Fallout: New Vegas.

 

[l3loodAngel]

So when you make a build something awesome has to happen! Build - awesome now connected in Obsidian games!

When you make a build you should be able to finish the game; That's all I am saying.

Take VTMB for example. In the late game, if you don't have a combat oriented build, it's likely impossible that you will be able to finish the game. Is that good game design? If yes, explain how.

My high str retarded mage that can rip books with his bare hands and can barely read is kicking ass and taking names. How is that even a design?

So you press on character creation screen and then something awesome has to happen in Dragon Age 2 Obsidian games.

 

[Lurker King]

I'm not saying Obsidian can go mainstream just by focusing on making the games they would want to play.

Okay.

But they'd still be better off making the games they want to play, than the games that they think the market wants to play, because doing the former gives them a chance at creating a classic, while doing the latter dooms them to eternal mediocrity.

They have more than one hundred people on payroll. Do you think that will gamble with their confidence by making their dream game? Especially now that they sold a lot by delivering a mediocre game? No. They will try to do the same thing, but more efficiently. They think like a publisher. This is their job. What them want have nothing to do with it. It’s checklist box design all the way. We are talking about people who made a risky choice when they're younger and didn’t know better and now are trapped in a poisonous environment. Tim Cain is just a shadow of his former self. His passion for cRPGs is long gone.

And that's how I see Obsidian right now: an example of mediocrity, which cannot possibly survive for long because they're not just making mediocre games, they're making mediocre games in a niche industry. This is not Electronic Arts we're talking about. Their market is small, and filled with people driven by nostalgia.

But any market is small in comparison with Triple-A. The proper comparison is between BG, and the rest. If you consider that, the BG series was never small. In fact, alongside with Diablo, it was always on its own level of popularity turbocharged by D&D franchise. PoE is practically a skeleton of a game and they sold almost 1 mill units with a ridiculous price tag. That’s a lot. And it’s not just Obsidian, mind you. Harebrained Schemes delivered sub-par games as well, and sold a lot of units too. cRPG players like to think of themselves as hot shit, but they are not. They are mediocre and predictable. The mere resemblance of a traditional cRPG with checklist design is enough to satisfy their tastes. Anything beyond that it is risky and will only get you in trouble. If they weren’t, we would have more developers making risks.

 

[Lurker King]

Avellone has his Planescape: Torment, Tim Cain has his Fallout, and Josh Sawyer has his... Icewind Dale?

Sawyer has Fallout: New Vegas.

How many people worked on these games again? Did I heard any of you mentioned Guido Henkel? How about John R. Gonzalez, the Lead Creative Designer of F:NV? Ever heard of that guy? I'm sure that they used a lot of content from Van Buren. Who made those drafts? Praising and criticizing developers individually is ridiculous, guys.

 

[aweigh]

you'd be surprised at the amount of input 1 person has over a sprawling project.

i would venture to say the larger the team the more large chunks of the project are dictated by fewer individuals.

 

[Chainsaw Gutsfuck]

My high str retarded mage that can rip books with his bare hands and can barely read is kicking ass and taking names. How is that even a design?

So you press on character creation screen and then something awesome has to happen in Dragon Age 2 Obsidian games.

So you are saying that there are some trap choices in character creation that are obvious, like making a mage with low intelligence but high strength.

But what if you want to hybridize? For example making a warrior that also has some stealth skills. Someone might point out that this build is inefficient, because the wise choice would be to make a pure warrior or a thief, instead of being mediocre at both. But this can be used as an argument against every type of hybrid characters. If the system is designed in a way that punishes hybridization, why even put the option to hybridize in the character creation? What is the purpose of letting the player create a character who is unable to finish the game?

This isn't a problem in tabletop RPGs because there is a DM who creates the encounters with the player's build in mind. How fair would it be if the DM didn't give a damn about your warrior/thief hybrid and just went fuck you, you must either fight this ogre that requires 100 strength or lockpick that door that requires 100 lockpicking? If he wanted you to play a specialized character why not tell you this from the start? The same applies to cRPGs.

 

[Lurker King]

you'd be surprised at the amount of input 1 person has over a sprawling project.

i would venture to say the larger the team the more large chunks of the project are dictated by fewer individuals.

Fallout: New Vegas team

Developers
Project Director
J.E. “Serpiente” Sawyer

Production
Executive Producer
Larry "54 DD" Liberty

Producers
Mikey "Archbishop of Babies" Dowling
Jason “Lord” Fader
Matt Singh
Tess "Obsidian's Gay Cowgirl" Treadwell

Additional Production
Brandon Adler
Matt Rorie

Art
Lead Artist
Joe Sanabria

Concept / Vault Boy Artist
Brian "BRENZE" Menze

World Building Lead
Scott "Scotty" Everts

User Interface Artist
Jason "misterDNA" Sereno

Character Artists
Daniel Alpert
Aaron Brown
Kevin Manning

Environment Artists
Aaron Brown
Cochey Cantu
Roger "KOA" Chang
Sean "The Butcher of Anaheim" Dunny
Paul "The Wildebeest" Fish
James "Subterranean Solzhenitsyn Aficionado" Garcia
Ed "Leapin' Lemurs" Lacabanne
David "Lion-2P" Lieu
James “Simply James” Melilli
Megan "Megantron" Parks
Kristen "The Atomic Hammer" Wong

Weapon Artists
Mitch Ahlswede
Daniel Alpert
Aaron Brown
Paul Fish
Kevin Manning

World Builders
Jessica "Anita Sedative" Edge
Denise "Space Dinosaur" McMurry
Megan “Meganbyte” Parks
Sydney "Detroit" Wolfram

Additional Character Art
Chris Willis

Additional Concept Art by
Massive Black

Animation
Lead Animator
Mark Bremerkamp

Animators
Seth “Admiral McSethington” McCaughey
Shon "Skippy" Stewart

Additional Animation
Anthony Rogers

Audio
Audio Director
Scott Lawlor

Sound Designers
Justin “Il Papino” Bell
Andrew "Doc Galapagoes" Dearing

Additional Sound Designer
Jonathan "Jin the Mad" Pendergrass
Fryda Wolff

Design
Lead Designer / System Designer
J.E. Sawyer

Area Design Lead
Charles "Flipper" Staples

Design Lead / Lead Writer
John "Jongo" Gonzalez

Area Designers
Jesse Farrell
Eric Fenstermaker
Akil "Long-legged Mac Daddy" Hooper
Jeff Husges
Robert “General” Lee
Jorge "Oscuro" Salgado
Travis "El Gimpo" Stout
J.R. “Junior” Vosovic
Stephanie Newland

Writers
Chris "MCA" Avellone
Eric "Dirty Fenster" Fenstermaker
Travis Stout

Additional Area Design
Eric "Siege Driver" Beaumont
Jessica "Vertigirl" Johnson
Casey "NSFW" Kwock
Matt "Prince Latifah" MacLean
Denise McMurry
Sydney Wolfram

Additional Writing
Tess "I'm gay, not desperate" Treadwell
George Ziets
Jason "Monster of the East" Bergman
Nick Breckon
Matt Grandstaff
Will "Badger" Noble
Andrew "Mojave, 'mo problems" Scharf

Programming
Lead Programmer
Frank Kowalkowski

Programmers
Michael "Friendlier Version of That Beard Guy" Bosley
Jonathan Burke
Justin "I'm not sleeping, I'm compiling" Reynard
Dan "Dan Rubalcaba" Rubalcaba
Rob "Pants are optional" Smith

Additional Programming
Anddy Archer
Adam Brennecke
Matt Campbell
Jason "Additional Programming" Fader
Brian Fox
Sven Knutson
Erik Novales
Javier Olivares
Daniel Teh
Chris Tencati

Quality Assurance
Testers
Ashley "Childlike Cat Empress of Chocolate Mushrooms" Betters
Casey Kwock
Anthony "Darth Anthrax" Rogers

Obsidian Entertainment
President and Chief Executive Officer
Feargus Urquhart

Chief Operations Officer
Chris Parker

Chief Information Officer
Darren Monahan

Chief Creative Officer
Chris Avellone

Chief Technology Officer
Chris Jones

Information Technology
Chris Benson
John Wunder

But hey guys. Let's ignore this gigantic team and say this is Sawyer's game, because we need to suck developer's cock.

 

[aweigh]

dude, do you seriously have that many posts and joined in 2015 wtf

 

[Roguey]

Take Thieves, all their skills, all their unique approaches to world, all the places where they can shine, all abandoned in favour of being more useful in combat and being made into another type of fighter.

Where do you see a thief class, pal?

 

[Lurker King]

dude, do you seriously have that many posts and joined in 2015 wtf

I'm a member of the Parrots Club. One of the oldest and most secretive cults organizations in the world. This is our symbol:

Spoiler

Sorry, but I can't explain our goals in the new world order!

 

[Lurker King]

Take Thieves, all their skills, all their unique approaches to world, all the places where they can shine, all abandoned in favour of being more useful in combat and being made into another type of fighter.

Where do you see a thief class, pal?

The problem is that other classes can do a bunch of stuff that only a thief should do, like lockpicking and disarm traps.

 

[Roguey]

The problem is that other classes can do a bunch of stuff that only a thief should do, like lockpicking and disarm traps.

Anyone can learn how to pick locks and disarm traps, I don't see why that should be exclusive to a particular class.

The choice between "take this one class or suffer wound penalties on a character every time you walk into a trap" is a lousy one.

 

[Lurker King]

Anyone can learn how to pick locks and disarm traps, I don't see why that should be exclusive to a particular class.

The choice between "take this one class or suffer wound penalties on a character every time you walk into a trap" is a lousy one.

That betrays a lack of understanding of what classes are about. You should have each member of a particular class to use them in specific circumstances.

 

[Roguey]

That betrays a lack of understanding of what classes are about. You should have each member of a particular class to use them in specific circumstances.

Classes are about filling different combat roles. Limiting PoE's five skills to select classes just removes character building choices for no good reason. Like if we were being simmy about this, wizards and priests would only ever be able to put points into lore, so there'd be no point in even letting you put points into skills as it would be something that would happen automatically on level up.

 

[Lurker King]

In a system of, say, 5 classes, let's say that you can have 4 party members at most. If lockpicking is class-specific, then you simply must have thieves in your party, effectively reducing the number of feasible party combinations, unless you don't need lockpicking to finish the game. Most of the time it will still be detrimental to your party's strength, coz lockpicking implies chests with high-end unique equipment, or with enough gold to power one's party without abusing game's economy

That’s like arguing that every class should be able to heal so that you don’t need a cleric in your party. It’s a misguided reasoning, because it is staple of a class based game that you have a party composed of different classes that are supposed to fulfill different roles when needed, inside and outside of combat. When you argue that will prevent you from making other combinations, like a pure fighter class, you are completely ignoring what these games should be about. A class based game inspired in D&D is not like other games and should not be modified to satisfy your expectations about other games. You could just as well adopt a classless system if you think that way.

 

[l3loodAngel]

My high str retarded mage that can rip books with his bare hands and can barely read is kicking ass and taking names. How is that even a design?

So you press on character creation screen and then something awesome has to happen in Dragon Age 2 Obsidian games.

So you are saying that there are some trap choices in character creation that are obvious, like making a mage with low intelligence but high strength.

But what if you want to hybridize? For example making a warrior that also has some stealth skills. Someone might point out that this build is inefficient, because the wise choice would be to make a pure warrior or a thief, instead of being mediocre at both. But this can be used as an argument against every type of hybrid characters. If the system is designed in a way that punishes hybridization, why even put the option to hybridize in the character creation? What is the purpose of letting the player create a character who is unable to finish the game?

This isn't a problem in tabletop RPGs because there is a DM who creates the encounters with the player's build in mind. How fair would it be if the DM didn't give a damn about your warrior/thief hybrid and just went fuck you, you must either fight this ogre that requires 100 strength or lockpick that door that requires 100 lockpicking? If he wanted you to play a specialized character why not tell you this from the start? The same applies to cRPGs.

You want beat a dead horse fine, but don't drag me into this nonsense. D&D lets players hybridize, but does not support player awesome play style, because as I understand that the point of this design is to make all builds good at anything. If a retarded barely speaking PC can cast highest lvl spells, then having stats becomes a scam, because they don't matter for shit. It just actually masks that your PC is The Hawke, because stats are there for flavour and everything possible when you are awesome.

What is the purpose of letting the player create a character who is unable to finish the game?

Alternatively you can ask: What is the purpose of letting the player fail at the game? Or more technically correct question: "Why let player fail to read a fucking manual?" where it fucking says that Int is important for mages. That's the correct question. Isn't it? The apparent answers are Not and it's bad for business.
But I won't get distracted by this garbage, because the core thing here is player anything = awesome. Not some mystical bad builds, which are players fault.

 

[Prime Junta]

But hey guys. Let's ignore this gigantic team and say this is Sawyer's game, because we need to suck developer's cock.

So if you don't like a game, it's all Sawyer's fault, and if you do, it's thanks to the team.

 

[Starwars]

Not only that, it's probably good in spite of Sawyer's involvement.

 

[Lurker King]

So if you don't like a game, it's all Sawyer's fault, and if you do, it's thanks to the team.

These are two different questions. I’m saying that you cannot put a game individually under a developer’s belt in a cooperative development enterprise such as cRPG development. Even in extreme cases such as Grimoire, Cleve still need the help of artist to make his game. But we are stupid, tribalist and tend to create heroes, so we talk about Tim Cain’s game, or Vault Dweller’s game, or Styg’s game, when the reality is that there are other people responsible for the game.

Ok? Good, now that you understand what I was actually talking about, there is also a question of whether we can pinpoint individual responsibility for the faults of a game. If I can trace back design system principles to a specific developer, I can praise or blame him, depending on whether he was right or not in his choices. I’m justified in complimenting Josh Sawyer for his personal mod for Fallout: New Vegas, but I also justified in criticizing him for the terrible system in PoE. I can praise Eric Fenstermaker for his work on the Vault in FO:NV, and I cal also criticize him for the terrible writing in PoE.

 

[Lurker King]

did you put that post through some text editor again

The day I stop using my text editor is the day I die. Or maybe it's the day that DarkUnderlord decide to implement justified alignment.

 

[Rev]

Sawyer has Fallout: New Vegas.

How many people worked on these games again? Did I heard any of you mentioned Guido Henkel? How about John R. Gonzalez, the Lead Creative Designer of F:NV? Ever heard of that guy? I'm sure that they used a lot of content from Van Buren. Who made those drafts? Praising and criticizing developers individually is ridiculous, guys.

If you go with this reasoning than every game is a team effort, except maybe some of the indies, like Underrail in which Styg did the main work and even worked on it by himself for some time.

I think that the lead still has a big responsibility and it's okay to give him credit when the work is really good, so Cain deserves credit for Fallout, Avellone deserves credit for Torment and Sawyer deserves credit for New Vegas. They established a vision, made sure the game was made according to it and were still the major responsible behind it, even if they didn't write every NPC in the games, nor wrote every line of code or whatever.

 

[Lahey]

Autuer theory is applicable to games but I disagree with your examples. BIS was not a conducive environment to such attitudes based on the testimony of former staff, and NV is about as far from fitting the criteria as any game I can think of.

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas would have been extraordinarily different without the presence of Josh, just as Torment would have been extraordinarily different without Avellone.

 

[Lahey]

Sure but there's a difference between having strong creative input and being an auteur. Labelling PT as MCA's and NV as Sawyer's blurs the lines and isn't something I think either of them would personally agree with. Sawyer's mod wouldn't exist were he an auteur.

EDIT: bad spelling.