Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Lhynn]

You also failed your comprehension check, evidently. I was mocking FeelTheRads who quite literally stated that complexity for complexity's sake wasn't bad by definition. The whole debate was FeelTheRads saying "complexity is good no matter what" and me saying "no it's not."

Also, I never edit out any substance, though I might have changed the wording.

i know, ergo quoting you completely out of context. The way you phrased it was pure gold so i just quoted that specific thing.

 

[Grunker]

You also failed your comprehension check, evidently. I was mocking FeelTheRads who quite literally stated that complexity for complexity's sake wasn't bad by definition. The whole debate was FeelTheRads saying "complexity is good no matter what" and me saying "no it's not."

Also, I never edit out any substance, though I might have changed the wording.

i know, ergo quoting you completely out of context. The way you phrased it was pure gold so i just quoted that specific thing.

oh well lol then i guess

 

[Sensuki]

For the lazy cunts here.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/64891-attribute-questionnaire/

Q1: The current hypothesis is that PE must have SIX (6) attributes because the IE games (and D&D) had six attributes. Does nostalgia require that this be so ? Would you be upset if it was 5 or 7 ?

Q2: Do you think that defenses should be weighed against other prominent combat stats such as Accuracy and Damage ? (as in, should you have to choose between putting points into damage or accuracy instead of into deflection or willpower)

Q3: Should Health and Stamina be spread across two attributes or would you prefer that they be married in advancement under one attribute ?

Q4: What do you think about Deflection being attribute independent ?

Q5: Should Action Speed be influenced by attributes?

Q6: Should inventory size be handled by attributes like it was in the IE games. If so, how do you see this being handled ?

Contribute. Stop arguing about simulationism and provide some proper feedback.

 

[Chaotic_Heretic]

As long as int governs all damage including melee... I don't really care what else Josh fucks in PE

 

[Shannow]

How the fuck does this game have more pages than W2+D:OS+ M&MX, all three of them having playable versions?

'Cause this is ObsidianfanboiCodex.net.

Spoiler

And Obsidian promised a new level for their Megadungeon for every 100 pages of this threat.
Who wants to bet that if asked today they'd claim to have no knowledge of such a promise?

And to be fair, without Roguey's nonsense this thread'd only be 150 pages or so.

 

[Sensuki]

I don't actually think any of the top posters in this thread are Obsidian fanboys. I certainly aint - I've only played two of their games, and only finished one (SW:KotOR2).

Their Project Management for this game seems to be pretty solid however.

 

[AN4RCHID]

I don't actually think any of the top posters in this thread are Obsidian fanboys. I certainly aint

Not Obsidian fanboys, just stalkers of Josh Sawyer.

 

[Sensuki]

That's just Roguey. If it's not PE related, none of the rest of us care.

The only reason he's the focus of the thread is that he is a forum poster. I find it odd that not many of the other devs partake in internet forum discussion ... but I suppose that's something that lonely people do mostly

 

[Commissar Draco]

Man I remember once I argued something about how I could lift a typical longsword with one hand and so buffer dudes could easily use it as a one-handed weapon and some guy kept quoting old timey Italian sword fighting technique books from the 17th century or some shit about how longswords are actually two handed weapons and games/movies misrepresent it as a one handed weapon and I thought "whoaw man am I too nerdy to get poon or what" just for being in that argument... and now I read this shit.

It's because the one handed "longswords" from games are arming swords.

Games can't make weapons you can wield in one hand or two hands where needed (You loose your shield or want to make more powerful swing or thrust) This is how Skyrim Immersive mods have the same wepons as two hander longsword and one handed longswords; same with pistols its is rare game when you can use it akimbo or with melee weapon in second hand. Devs are lazy.

 

[Roguey]

That's just Roguey. If it's not PE related, none of the rest of us care.

The only reason he's the focus of the thread is that he is a forum poster. I find it odd that not many of the other devs partake in internet forum discussion ... but I suppose that's something that lonely people do mostly

They don't want to deal with obnoxious fans. Josh has cats and a girlfriend he's been with for over a decade so he's not lacking in company.

Anyway I have over 900 posts itt.

 

[Infinitron]

Roguey isn't the main poster keeping this thread alive. He's actually more likely to shitpost in other threads than in here.

 

[Sensuki]

They don't want to deal with obnoxious fans. Josh has cats and a girlfriend he's been with for over a decade so he's not lacking in company.

You missed who that line was a dig at It certainly wasn't Josh, and it was more a general statement as forum posting requires a bit of effort, whereas most of the devs are tweeters and facebookers and the like - you know, the shallow social media types. I do actually think less of people for such things.

I have nearly 1K posts in this thread now, probably the most out of anyone, and I only appeared like 300 pages in. I don't believe I have ever seen you make a constructive post, but I guess that's not your thing. You only ever post pro-Josh Sawyer posts, bag other developers, make cynical statements and post "this sucks" or "this is good". I remember once, Zed said you were an A+ poster, however I have to disagree.

I don't blame PE devs for not posting on their forum, holy shit that place is terrible.

 

[Roguey]

I have nearly 1K posts in this thread now, probably the most out of anyone, and I only appeared like 300 pages in. I don't believe I have ever seen you make a constructive post, but I guess that's not your thing. You only ever post pro-Josh Sawyer posts, bag other developers, make cynical statements and post "this sucks" or "this is good". I remember once, Zed said you were an A+ poster, however I have to disagree.

I'm not interested in telling Josh how to do his job for the most part. Most fan suggestions are awful and I'm sure mine would be too.

 

[Sensuki]

Fair enough.

FTR, what do you have to say about the current attribute system?

I actually think the attribute system situation is a bit of a dilemma.

In the greater scope of things it's probably not a huge deal, as attributes are generally a set and forget thing. But I remember once upon a time (last year I think) Josh made a quote saying that most developers probably start off game system design with "so what are the stats going to be?". That seemed like a pretty normal thing to do to me and his calling out of that definitely made me think ... hey perhaps Josh's way is better - waiting until after the rest of the system design is complete to make attributes.

Now I'm not so sure, actually. Josh has stated (you can prob find the quotes I am talking about) that he doesn't really like attribute systems and prefers skill-based systems, so I can't help but get the feeling that the PE attribute system is rather uninspired. It seems like it's gone through a few revisions and the spread of combat stats over attributes almost seems like Josh is struggling a little bit - within all of the design constraints he has imposed upon himself. You can blame it on the fans expectations, but I think that is a bit of a weak statement, as so far in the attribute questionnaire thread - no one has stated that they MUST have six attributes, and most people seem far more concerned about the attribute names, and their relationship between the underlying mechanics, than the actual balance of the mechanics themselves.

As a result the current design feels very tacked on and uninspired, even if I do like it's direction in relation to the system design. I can't help but think that if he had designed them the 'normal' way in conjunction with the rest of the systems that he would have something more robust and concrete than what we have now.

 

[Roguey]

Creating the attributes first gets you shit like CLASSIC and every other failure of an attribute system.

 

[Infinitron]

Doing it Josh's way created exactly what you'd expect it would - the concept of attributes as additional "knobs" that allow you to fine-tune and lightly modify derived stats which are primarily determined by class and talents.

Although, if the game has lots of equipment that affects your attributes, they might be able to do more than just lightly modify. You could even have a kind of "Diablo lite" experience in terms of equipment.

 

[Sensuki]

Creating the attributes first gets you shit like CLASSIC and every other failure of an attribute system.

As much as classic is unbalanced as fuck, it is actually a pretty in-depth attribute system.

 

[Roguey]

As much as classic is unbalanced as fuck, it is actually a pretty in-depth attribute system.

What it does that PoE does not: Modifies action points (terrible), additional chance for an additional ap per turn/more hp (pointless), initiative (does not work in real-time without rounds), movement per action point (also not applicable to real-time), skill points per level (terrible), putting an arbitrary cap on one skill (terrible), and nothing when it comes to charisma (ditto).

I'm aware you've made arguments that one of the stats should affect speed of combat actions, but I dunno if Josh could make that work with armor while keeping things fun. "Is this fun?" is a big thing with him.

 

[Sensuki]

How does an attribute that affects how fast you do things =/= fun ?

I think one of the reasons for leaving it out is D&D never had speed controlled by an attribute, it was weapon and level based. I can also see the reason for avoiding it - he wants there to be distinction between fast, medium and slow weapons and the use of armor.

I think something in the realm of a max of +25-50% action speed from maxing out a speed attribute wouldn't do too much to hurt the system, congrats you can swing a 2H weapon in armor as fast as a guy in no armor who has a dagger ... but you paid all your attribute points for it, and that same guy is still faster if he distributed any points into it too.

And I am not saying that WL2 system should be used for anything other than WL2. I am saying that the WL2 system feels more like an actual attribute system, bunch of different combat stats appended to different attributes. The Eternity one is basically one combat stat and a defense. Josh has said that adding more things together makes things gnarly. I don't really mind it - I like the design goals and everything, but I don't think that it's quite there yet and needs some work. The spreading of one defense across two attributes and not weighing them against other prominent combat stats such as damage and accuracy makes it hard to come up with other things to compensate.

 

[Jim the Dinosaur]

How does an attribute that affects how fast you do things =/= fun ?

Roguey explained earlier that she thinks that people always want to be able to do things as fast as possible. Every player always uses light daggers in every crpg for that reason.

 

[Roguey]

And I am not saying that WL2 system should be used for anything other than WL2. I am saying that the WL2 system feels more like an actual attribute system, bunch of different combat stats appended to different attributes.

So you like it because it feels familiar and sticks to traditional RPG conventions. "This is how RPGs have done things, therefore RPGs should do things this way forever," as Josh once said. Also
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/527619214

I spent the morning reading about Scrum development cycles versus the traditional Waterfall strategy. How important is it for Obsidian to have a fully functional game at the early stages?

It's very important, but often difficult due to the (developer-inflicted) sprawling nature of RPG features. Though this may seem counter-intuitive, I think that the core game play features should be implemented prior to the character advancement systems. Ultimately, character advancement systems modify and reinforce the core game play. Designing and implementing features the other way around is backwards even though technically it will seem "MOAR RPG".

 

[Sensuki]

Roguey explained earlier that she thinks that people always want to be able to do things as fast as possible. Every player always uses light daggers in every crpg for that reason.

Is that a joke ? I've actually never seen anyone use light daggers ever.

The inclusion of an attribute that added speed to a character would even be beneficial in that sense, as it would allow people to speed things up rather than slow things down.

Doing things as quick as possible usually means everyone wears Boots of Speed and maxing damage, so you get through encounters faster. A lot of the time the faster weapons kill people more slowly than a maul does or whatever.

So you like it because it feels familiar and sticks to traditional RPG conventions. "This is how RPGs have done things, therefore RPGs should do things this way forever," as Josh once said.

No, I think that the current PE one is struggling a little bit to shine, whereas if developed alongside the game systems, Josh may have had a better idea of how to make an attribute system that didn't struggle as much. That's just how I see the current system anyway, as opposed to some of the other game systems which are fairly robust and sensible. I'd love to see a good attribute system that meets his design goals - I'm not sure whether it will get there though, as it's not something he can ponder about forever as there's a lot of other work to be done.

 

[bonescraper]

Light daggers? As opposed to heavy two handed daggers?

 

[Sensuki]

Thought so.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

That's what the other dudebro said; but then I wasn't really talking about the ones in the games. Still, I'm not a medieval arms expert so... yeah, probably.

Longswords allow for some neat techniques when used two-handed and if I remember correctly, generally are faster when two handed.