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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Arkeus

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You are leaving out, that in 3rd edition, there is no cutoff for constitution bonuses for non-fighter classes. Also, constitution bonuses to hitpoints started at higher values in 2nd edition. Both things are relevant in the 1-10 level scale. And increasing constitution was not easily possible before 3rd edition.

No, while the cut-off for non-fighter classes exist in 2nd, in practice it doesn't matter simply because it's easier to get to that cutoff in 2nd than to get the equivalent in 3rd... simply because you don't have the point buy system.

Also, there is the important thing that, while everything is "every two levels" in 3rd, a lot of stuff are "one point per level" in 2nd, meaning it's even easier to inflate in 2nd.
 

Roguey

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"I think there should be hard counters,
Hard counters are anti-tactical, wanting them is ridiculous.
magic should be governed by completely different rules than mundane classes,even if that makes for overpowered combinations,
No. This isn't a mage-playing game.
nothing wrong with more puzzle like battles instead of tactical ones,"
358e2vl.png

The idea that, in a RPG, there should only be one solution for any given problem, is absurd.

BG2 had better combat than IWD2. Deal with it!
They both have their flaws, but IWD2 had the better vision and with enough time they would have been closer to it. Can't say the same for Bioware.
 

aleph

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No, while the cut-off for non-fighter classes exist in 2nd, in practice it doesn't matter simply because it's easier to get to that cutoff in 2nd than to get the equivalent in 3rd... simply because you don't have the point buy system.

Also, there is the important thing that, while everything is "every two levels" in 3rd, a lot of stuff are "one point per level" in 2nd, meaning it's even easier to inflate in 2nd.

Eh.. what?! The cutuoff does not matter because it is easy to reach. Shouldn't this be a reason for it to matter more, because it is reached very often?

Well, about the two point thing, it is much easier to increase an ability score in 3rd edition by 2 points than by 1 point in 2nd edition...
 

Arkeus

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Eh.. what?! The cutuoff does not matter because it is easy to reach. Shouldn't this be a reason for it to matter more, because it is reached very often?

Well, about the two point thing, it is much easier to increase an ability score in 3rd edition by 2 points than by 1 point in 2nd edition...
No, it's the opposite: the point buy system encourages dump stats, which means getting to the equivalent in 3rd edition (14 const) for non fighter class is a more significant cost than in 2nd edition.

For fighter classes, you cannot have constitution as high as you casually have in 2nd Ed unless you sacrifice damage and Attack Bonus instead.
 

aleph

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Eh.. what?! The cutuoff does not matter because it is easy to reach. Shouldn't this be a reason for it to matter more, because it is reached very often?

Well, about the two point thing, it is much easier to increase an ability score in 3rd edition by 2 points than by 1 point in 2nd edition...
No, it's the opposite: the point buy system encourages dump stats, which means getting to the equivalent in 3rd edition (14 const) for non fighter class is a more significant cost than in 2nd edition.

For fighter classes, you cannot have constitution as high as you casually have in 2nd Ed unless you sacrifice damage and Attack Bonus instead.

2nd Edition did include the option of using point buy instead of rolling. But it doesn't really matter, because the argument works also the other way around: point buy allows to buy high ability scores where it matters, instead of second edition where you had to take the stats you rolled, which were usually average (rolling 13 or higher only has a probability of around 1/4).

Also, only 15 const and higher gave additional hp in 2nd edition
 

Hormalakh

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something about puzzles not being games

Since when are puzzles out of the "game" category? Puzzles can be fun games. The problem lies in the fact that all the mage battles in BG2 are the same puzzle that is the problem. If they didn't utilize a singular AI for each mage, then the mage battles would have become even more interesting. The spell system in itslef could have been salvaged with a few modifications. For example, imagine if you were able to complete a quest that would give you a list of the spells that a certain high wizard memorizes. Then you would have an idea of what to expect and how to begin countering them. When every joe schmoe mage in BG2 always starts with the same contingency, then it was always obvious to start breaking down their buffs and in which order.
 

Akratus

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Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
That's one of the things that bug me about the design in most games. The idea that players should be able to get through everything without having to prepare, research etc. As though that can't be fun. It could add new dimensions to a game.
 

aleph

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That's one of the things that bug me about the design in most games. The idea that players should be able to get through everything without having to prepare, research etc. As though that can't be fun. It could add new dimensions to a game.

I think sawyers problem with BG2 is exactly the other way, he hates surprises and uncertainty. He thinks it should be possible to prepare for everything beforehand and come up with a perfect strategy for every challenge.
 

Hormalakh

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no he rightly believes that meta-gaming is not how designers choose to create a gaming experience. surprises are ok as long as the surprise has some sort of solution outside of divine prescience
 

aleph

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if this were true, why is his approach to design to remove surprises and uncertainty instead of giving players the tools to avoid/deal with those?
 

Hormalakh

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how do you know he's removing surprises? he hasn't stated that. his design decisions are a mystery to me, but his conclusions about prior games seems to ring true. i think his surprises are going to be more about enemy make-up and placement than what we were used to in the past. i do agree with you that Sawyer is quick to remove previously established tropes if he cannot find a way to utilize them or if it's going to take too long/sppend too many resources. i'm not sure if this is because he lacks creativity, or if it really isn't financially feasible to spend so much time on all these different problems. there is also beta-testing at the end of the day as well. i'd like to believe that half of his mechanics aren't finalized.
 

Roguey

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something about puzzles not being games

Since when are puzzles out of the "game" category? Puzzles can be fun games. The problem lies in the fact that all the mage battles in BG2 are the same puzzle that is the problem. If they didn't utilize a singular AI for each mage, then the mage battles would have become even more interesting. The spell system in itslef could have been salvaged with a few modifications. For example, imagine if you were able to complete a quest that would give you a list of the spells that a certain high wizard memorizes. Then you would have an idea of what to expect and how to begin countering them. When every joe schmoe mage in BG2 always starts with the same contingency, then it was always obvious to start breaking down their buffs and in which order.
Answer the following questions:

* Does the game allow you to develop and use tactics?
* Does the game allow you to develop and deploy a strategy?
* Does the game allow you to resolve conflicts in multiple ways?

If you answered "no" to all of the above, you're playing a "pure" adventure/puzzle game. If you answered "yes" to one or more of the above, it may be another sort of game, one that is still currently made.

I think difficulty and agony are two separate things (or should be) in games. Combat and "contested" game play should be oriented around challenge, of which difficulty is an important element. The focus is on figuring a way through a problem. This can be a puzzle, logical or otherwise, through which there are a finite amount of designed paths, or it can be something like combat, with a theoretically infinite number of strategic and tactical approaches.

We want people to feel like they have a lot of tactical options for approaching a challenge. A challenge that requires one specific build to overcome isn't really tactical gameplay; it's more of a combat puzzle. I think that's less satisfying in a party-based game where you control the composition and build of your group.

It's cool that, especially in 2nd Edition, wizards had so many spells to use, but in Baldur's Gate II, I believe it resulted in more-or-less strict combat puzzles rather than loose combat puzzles or tactical challenges. If the only viable way through a fight is to use a specific sequence of spells, that's not something that you tactically opt to do -- it's the thing you must do to move forward. And in many of those fights, the only way to figure out what spells to use is to trigger the fight, get wiped, reload, and try again.

"Okay I'll just tell you what spells to use" doesn't solve any problems, it's a puzzle where the solution is given to you.
 

aleph

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Hormalakh: he doesn't say it outright, but everything know about his design goals so far points into the direction of making things more predictable
 

Hormalakh

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Going back to surprises, I think his solution to "surprises" isn't to take them out completely., but rater to just give you more than one solution to the surprise. He wants multiple solutions to problems because if your party doesn't have than one single counter, you can still sort of progress through the battle instead of having to reload and suddenly "win" the battle. I don't assume to think that "progressing" means that you'll get past the obstacle scot-free. It migt be less efficient and you might have to travel back and forth to town more often if you can't handle the surprises as well.
 

Rake

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* Does the game allow you to develop and use tactics?
* Does the game allow you to develop and deploy a strategy?
* Does the game allow you to resolve conflicts in multiple ways?

If you answered "no" to all of the above, you're playing a "pure" adventure/puzzle game. If you answered "yes" to one or more of the above, it may be another sort of game, one that is still currently made.
BG2 allowed all 3

We want people to feel like they have a lot of tactical options for approaching a challenge. A challenge that requires one specific build to overcome isn't really tactical gameplay; it's more of a combat puzzle. I think that's less satisfying in a party-based game where you control the composition and build of your group.
Keyword highlighted
It's cool that, especially in 2nd Edition, wizards had so many spells to use, but in Baldur's Gate II, I believe it resulted in more-or-less strict combat puzzles rather than loose combat puzzles or tactical challenges. If the only viable way through a fight is to use a specific sequence of spells, that's not something that you tactically opt to do -- it's the thing you must do to move forward. And in many of those fights, the only way to figure out what spells to use is to trigger the fight, get wiped, reload, and try again.

Fanny how many people loved this aspect of the game.
I would say that IWD 1+2 battles were stale and repetetive exactly because they lacked that aspect.

And the highlighted part is exactly what i would prefer. Loose combat puzzles with more than one solutions, but still with a finite number of ways to win.
 

aleph

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Hormalakh: Let's hope so, if it works out like this I could live with the design. But I am skeptical that it will really work out like this.
 

Hormalakh

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I'm going to assume that this is an honest discussion, so I'll bite.

Answer the following questions:

* Does the game allow you to develop and use tactics?
* Does the game allow you to develop and deploy a strategy?
* Does the game allow you to resolve conflicts in multiple ways?

If you answered "no" to all of the above, you're playing a "pure" adventure/puzzle game. If you answered "yes" to one or more of the above, it may be another sort of game, one that is still currently made.
Most of the combat will be following the above rules, but it isn't impossible for portions of combat to follow a puzzle methodology. Many RPGs have riddles and puzzles as poart of the experience, so makinga game that has puzzles in it doesn't preclude it from being an RPG. In fact, I'd argue that some of the best riddles/puzzles I've found have been in RPGs. We agree that the mage battles in BG2 could be combat puzzles, so I'm not going to argue that point. What I am going to argue is this:

We want people to feel like they have a lot of tactical options for approaching a challenge. A challenge that requires one specific build to overcome isn't really tactical gameplay; it's more of a combat puzzle. I think that's less satisfying in a party-based game where you control the composition and build of your group.

I believe that Sawyer's conclusion is flawed where I bolded. His conclusion that it is less satisfying is not based on anything that he might have seen in Let's Plays or anything of that sort - it's based on his own prejudices on how he likes playing DnD games. It might be less satisfying to him, but it's been a clear crowd favorite as has been noted both here on the 'dex as well as on Obsidian's own forums. The people loved the mage battles. Yes, it was a combat puzzle, but players liked that sort of puzzle. As I mentioned before, a big problem was that it was only one combat puzzle in the whole game. Everyone used the same spells in the same order. You quickly learned (or you went online) to figure out what the sequence was and then you countered it the SAME. WAY. EVERY. TIME.

If the spells used were different by different mages, then it could have been really satisfying. Imagine if one group of wizards only used necromancy spells. Another group of wizards only conjured. Then imagine if you had to figure out ways to get past those classes of wizards. Yes, using hard counters. You either figured out the puzzle and moved on, or you restarted the encounter and tried a different tactic. When you finished it, you'd be like "huh that was a good experience. I didn't realize that liches spamming X spell needed a Y counter to even begin fighting them.


"Okay I'll just tell you what spells to use" doesn't solve any problems, it's a puzzle where the solution is given to you.

Nobody said to tell the player what spells to use. The player either needs to figure it out on his own, or he can cheapen his experience by by-passing it (looking up the solution on-line). Why must every battle have a singular "tactical" focus? Why can't the designers mix it up? A few tactical combat experiences, a few puzzle combat experiences. Everybody wins.
 

Hormalakh

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Hormalakh: Let's hope so, if it works out like this I could live with the design. But I am skeptical that it will really work out like this.
So am I, brother... so am i. Hence why I always go back to "we shall see how things turn out. I don't know enough to make a value judgement yet."
 

Roguey

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I believe that Sawyer's conclusion is flawed where I bolded. His conclusion that it is less satisfying is not based on anything that he might have seen in Let's Plays or anything of that sort - it's based on his own prejudices on how he likes playing DnD games.
It's also based on seeing people get frustrated when they build parties that don't have the hard counter to move forward.

Needing a certain spell, ability, class, item, or whatever to progress in a RPG = garbage.

It might be less satisfying to him, but it's been a clear crowd favorite as has been noted both here on the 'dex as well as on Obsidian's own forums. The people loved the mage battles. Yes, it was a combat puzzle, but players liked that sort of puzzle.
Some people liked them. He's not making a game for them.
 

Shadenuat

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Any combat encounter is a puzzle under a blanket, it's just that with something like immunity to normal weapons you learn instantly that you need to work on adjusting tactics, while in modern game same enemy would just have 2000 hitpoints - here, burn through those however you like - awesome tactical battle.
And there wasn't a time in IE when you could't circumvent particular effect without using a specific spell, either by items or class abilities.

Hormalakh why are you even arguing with her?
 

Karellen

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I don't think that Sawyer's approach is necessarily bad, but he's not really communicating well how he envisions it to work. How much impact does correct preparation have? If party composition, spell choice and all that stuff is basically just a matter of aesthetics or preference, and the game is about "playing your build well" or whatever, that sounds kind of terrible, since it arguably makes it harder to produce interesting encounters that would encourage or force the player to switch strategies. Doing the things that your character or party are good at over and over again is banal; having to come up with new ways to overcome their limitations is interesting. This is why going out of your way to avoid roadblocking players is a double-edged sword; it's not a bad idea in absolute terms, but involves dangerous tradeoffs.

I've been replaying Vagrant Story recently, and one of the great things about it is how a lot of fights have one or more "elegant" solutions - by and large by using the correct type of weapon and the right buffs, debuffs and defensive tools - which, when correctly applied, make most fights quick and makes you feel awesome. A lot of these solutions involve a type of "hard counter", in that you can defuse some critical part of the enemy's arsenal or bypass some part of their defense effortlessly. But even if you don't have the tools to apply an ideal solution like that, you can generally still brute-force your way through in any number of ways, it's just usually riskier and a lot less efficient. The thing, though, is that in all of these cases encounters differ from one another, which makes switching strategies, equipment, skills and spells worthwhile; you could say there's always a fairly granular range from the perfect strategy to feasible strategies to strategies that are just plain terrible and will take you nowhere.

The thing about Vagrant Story, if anything, is that the game doesn't feel like it's explicitly designed to be beatable with any kind of strategy or build. It's just that the game's combat mechanics are so robust and have enough moving parts that you can always come up with some desperate last-ditch way to use the tools at your disposal to overcome difficult enemies, though with varying degrees of success, as this can turn battles into slow, grueling battles of attrition. With any luck, this may be the kind of thing Sawyer is going for, but I think he may be worrying too much about making any approach, build or tool set feasible in any situation. I'd rather he give the player a reasonably broad set of tools and let them figure out how to overcome challenges with it. In some ways it's a tiny, almost a semantic difference, but one that has a big impact on how people approach the game.
 

Rake

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I believe that Sawyer's conclusion is flawed where I bolded. His conclusion that it is less satisfying is not based on anything that he might have seen in Let's Plays or anything of that sort - it's based on his own prejudices on how he likes playing DnD games.
It's also based on seeing people get frustrated when they build parties that don't have the hard counter to move forward.

Needing a certain spell, ability, class, item, or whatever to progress in a RPG = garbage..
Name such an instance where unless you have a spesific spell, ability, class, item, or whatever you could not progress in the game.
It might be less satisfying to him, but it's been a clear crowd favorite as has been noted both here on the 'dex as well as on Obsidian's own forums. The people loved the mage battles. Yes, it was a combat puzzle, but players liked that sort of puzzle.
Some people liked them. He's not making a game for them.
So you are moving the goalposts i see. I thought Sawyer's design was Universal and the "correct one".
And Sawyer is making a game for the IE audience, not Roguey and a couple of autists that like 4E D&D. If a significant part of that audience likes these things, Sawyer will fail to his goal to please them.
 
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Shadenuat

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A lot of these solutions involve a type of "hard counter", in that you can defuse some critical part of the enemy's arsenal or bypass some part of their defense effortlessly. But even if you don't have the tools to apply an ideal solution like that, you can generally still brute-force your way through in any number of ways
Most of RPGs do that, IE games aren't exception. Enemies having some weakness, player being able to grind some (or spend a lot more resources) and bring to them a more straight fight. It's not unique. And in the end PoE would feature same core ideas, because it's just in the nature of combat to search for strengths and weaknesses. BG2 presented those more sharply sometimes, which I see more as a plus - in Diablo you can go do korean grind and nuke the fuckers; in BG2 if you continue to rush mages without magical protection or psionics without some sort of plan, you'll end up dead.
More games should cut players ability to outlevel, outlast or outgrind that way.
 

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