Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Zed]

I'm sure they have a spare producer to fill his role :D

?

Unless said producer had animation experience why would he fill his role. Is this a joke I'm not getting?

yes it's a joke you're not getting. they have a million producers at obsidian, and it's not like they went to Producer school (they are artists, programmers, etc)

 

[Duraframe300]

I'm sure they have a spare producer to fill his role :D

?

Unless said producer had animation experience why would he fill his role. Is this a joke I'm not getting?

yes it's a joke you're not getting. they have a million producers at obsidian, and it's not like they went to Producer school (they are artists, programmers, etc)

Ah, yeah. That's why I said animation experience though.

 

[Bubbles]

- lead animator on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

Ah, such a tragic loss.

 

[Jedi Exile]

- lead animator on Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines

Ah, such a tragic loss.

Walking animation in Bloodlines was really terrible - especially if you compare it to Half-Life 2, but I guess this is just unfair

 

[Duraframe300]

Facial animation was amazing though.

 

[Hormalakh]

wait. wHat?! so who's going to do the alpha pass on animations?

seriously though, did they fire him or did he just leave?

 

[Duraframe300]

wait. wHat?! so who's going to do the alpha pass on animations?

seriously though, did they fire him or did he just leave?

Most likely leave.

I see no real scenario for them to fire him. And it doesn't seem like they laid people off. Didn't even notice it, as Shawn updated his profile around the same time.

2 QA people moved on after TSOT, but that is to be expected.

 

[Duraframe300]

Apparently he moved to Michigan to be closer to his family.

 

[LivingOne]

I should have said before that there's a separate asset for the HUD portrait. I don't remember the dimensions/aspect but they are not the same as the character sheet portrait. We do manually crop them in to make the faces as prominent as possible.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65020-upload-character-portraits/

 

[Bubbles]

Apparently he moved to Michigan to be closer to his family.

That's code for "sexually harassed a co-worker". Well, the game can get better now.

 

[Duraframe300]

The new Lead Animator is Shon Stewart (Stick of Truth)

 

[Witiko]

You'll still be making mistakes and learning from them as you play the game, but personally I think it's preferable that you can actually play the game, learn from it, and adapt for the future as opposed to having a huge advantage or disadvantage right off the bat based on how much meta information you know about the game

This last bit is just PR speak for everyone wins. You said absolutely nothing. How does this stat system let you "adapt for the future" any better that NWN? What "advantage/disadvantage" are you talking about? If you mean the difficulty of the game might be different based on your stat choices.... well I sure as hell hope that PoE also changes in difficulty based on what stat choices you make at least from encounter to encounter, surely you don't mean to say that all challenges can be met with equal ease by any character with any stat distribution, because that completely negates the point of making someone choose their stats to begin with.

I agree that attempting to make all the fathomable builds equally viable is shit. Can't be done and makes the chargen inconsequential to the game difficulty. The other extreme of there being only one right build for each class is equally boring, though, so I appreciate that Josh is trying to find the sweet spot in between that is supporting multiple playstyles.

 

[hiver]

the game should not be played in chargen.

1. Ultimately only the complete newbs can make any kind of drastic mistakes that completely ruin a build.
2. Even if you do something horrible it is because there was some mistake in explanations or lack of proper explanation what which stat does.
3. Even if such a build is made, all it does is it makes you go back and play with another.

What Sawyer is doing there is basically making the chargen such as most capable players see it. None of you will make a completely useless build in BG2 - is that not correct? So, for you - practically, there is no bad builds in the game - you always make good builds. More or less.
Is it even possible to make a completely useless build in BG games? what... youre going to give 5 in strength to a fighter?

why would you even expect such a fighter to win anything?

Most of you just want that possibility to be there - just to be there - its not like anyone will use it and actually create a build that is unplayable and then - play with it.
Because you cant. because if you can then its not an unplayable build.

PoE build will be all doable similar to all builds you actually make in BG games - It does not mean they are completely the same.


the game should not be played in chargen.


- spelling

 

[Abelian]

In party-based game where you have recruitable NPC's, the messing up the PC's stats is mitigated by the rest of the party. Josh even created a an entire party of sub-optimal characters in IWD2 with which he was able to finish the game.

Edit: I googled 'icewind dale 2 "Hands of Fury" josh sawyer' to see where I remembered that information from, and the first result is the quoted Codex post below. Now I'm quoting Roguey, who's quoting Josh... just what this thread needed.

Trivia: The Hands of Fury pre-made party was created by Josh.

The whole party was really built around character concepts instead of actually being powerful characters. That said, I did play through the entirety of IWD2 with that party. Because they start off so... weird, you have to get creative with how you build them and play them over time.

The things he has to do to make D&D interesting.

 

[tuluse]

You can create a sub-optimal party in PoE too, there's just a limit on how sub-optimal it can be.

hiver there are people in this thread who think that avoiding making a 5 STR fighter somehow makes them smart and that removing the ability to do so limits them from using their vast intellect to create a character.

 

[Roguey]

But to requote Josh

I often felt like I shouldn't be designing games for the BG audience because I loathed the NPCs in BG/BG2/TotSC so much.

I know he was far from the only person responsible for that particular train wreck, but still - someone that was (even if it was for just the last year of development) in charge of a team that gave us NPCs of NWN2 OC should really be more careful of what comes out of his mouth.

He had nothing to do with the writing, aside from adding more depth to the King of Shadows, so not really.

Facial animation was amazing though.

I'm reasonably confident that was 90% Valve's facial animation tool and pretty much anyone with rudimentary knowledge and ability can get those kinds of results from using Source.

Lore chat with Sawyer:

I wonder if they make that stuff up as people ask the questions, of if there's a 500 pages lore document somewhere that details all of this.

It's not really a huge lore document. I don't think I've made anything up on the spot when I answer things in the forum.

Question about stuff like this: I'm guessing lots of people, or at least several, contribute to the doc/wiki/etc. Who has the final word? Like, if you come up with some idea about capybara-riding halflings and add it to the wiki, who would have to veto that? What's the process like?

I do.

The process is that people write things, I look at it, and 9/10 times I don't say anything or I give them the Kid At Mac Thumbs Up + Nod Face. 1/10 times I ask them what they are going for with the idea and then try to work with them on it. A subset of those times I ultimately say, "That doesn't work for these reasons, SOZ!!" and it gets cut.

This will undoubtedly result in quality lore.

 

[LivingOne]

motorizer, on 08 Mar 2014 - 12:55 PM, said:
The new issue if PC gamer has just dropped through my letterbox (subscriber) and includes a 4 page spread on pillars of eternity (actually 6 pages but that includes a double page of not much but some concept art and 2 paragraphs)

It's based on an interview with Joh Sawyer.



It's a nice piece with some shots I havent seen and some info I didn't know (though admittedly I don't read everything so I don't know if it really is new info)



As an unrelated bonus it also has features on a couple of the best looking of the other kickstarters I backed... Kindom come and elite dangerous.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65533-uk-pc-gamer-article/


Anyone has it?

 

[hiver]

Josh even created a an entire party of sub-optimal characters in IWD2 with which he was able to finish the game.

If that is so, then those builds are optimal. Basically.
Within optimal range.

Which is greatly influenced by the game itself that allows such approach... since IWD games were pretty damn easy for anyone who had some basic knowledge about how such games work.

You can create a sub-optimal party in PoE too, there's just a limit on how sub-optimal it can be.

hiver there are people in this thread who think that avoiding making a 5 STR fighter somehow makes them smart and that removing the ability to do so limits them from using their vast intellect to create a character.

yeah... ego tripping - lol you made suboptimal build yo so stupid me so smart uh! - fucking homosapiens ... (and they even have Homo in the name ffs... eh Cleve?),
- they would never do them or play with them. Or they would cheese it all because - meta knowledge. -
I won the chargen mini game, yay me!


You guys want to fight the chargen - go play wasteland 2 current build. Youll be facepalming all the way through.


I would rather have encounters, story, quests and events that challenge me - rather then chargen. - which is a non challenge anyway.

 

[sea]

the game should not be played in chargen.

Of course... and the entire point of Josh's decisions in Eternity seem to be putting the difficulty in the combat itself rather than party builds alone (though to say that was the case in the Infinity Engine games is grossly over-simplifying them and really not very fair to them).

But, if I make a party of 6 support bards who suck at fighting, I still expect (and probably deserve to) struggle with the game to a greater degree.

As others have mentioned I've never really seen this mythical game where you can outright create a terribly broken or ineffective character unless you really try to. Even Fallout, which many people reference because a few skills aren't worth tagging or increasing much/at all, has enough options available to let you get through the game the way you want (and if a player avoids all combat abilities, but then neglects stealth or companions, I think they probably deserve to have a difficult time of things, because learning how the character system works and what is worth putting points into to what degrees and in what combinations is part of the game).

 

[Arkeus]

As others have mentioned I've never really seen this mythical game where you can outright create a terribly broken or ineffective character unless you really try to.

In DA:O, taking a thief or a warrior means you are only 30% or so as strong as a Mage played and levelled up with the same efficiency.

In BG, making a non-dual/multi thief means you are, likewise, around 30% as capable as any other classes: you can 'make do' if you use other classes by using your companions, but a thief is plain useless in BG AND has low-life, meaning that the odds of you dying are much greater compared to any other classes (even mage, as you are useless as a thief).

In BG2, using a thief or a warrior is, likewise, nerfing yourself- unless you are playing a trapper.

Let's not even talk about the joke that's the Bard.

 

[sea]

In DA:O, taking a thief or a warrior means you are only 30% or so as strong as a Mage played and levelled up with the same efficiency.

In BG, making a non-dual/multi thief means you are, likewise, around 30% as capable as any other classes: you can 'make do' if you use other classes by using your companions, but a thief is plain useless in BG AND has low-life, meaning that the odds of you dying are much greater compared to any other classes (even mage, as you are useless as a thief).

In BG2, using a thief or a warrior is, likewise, nerfing yourself- unless you are playing a trapper.

Let's not even talk about the joke that's the Bard.

Sure, but those are party-based games, and if you are going to equate the effectiveness of the character overall with combat effectiveness, doesn't that kind off miss the point? If you create a thief, then doesn't it stand to reason that you are going to be less useful in direct combat as a warrior? How is that a problem? It's not like the game becomes unwinnable because you picked a class less ideal at damage-dealing.

Also, in Dragon Age, rogues are arguably just as powerful as mages if they go dual-wielding + backstabs (lack of utility and AoE but huge DPS), and dual-wielding warriors can still steamroll the game. That also completely ignores tank characters, and support/utility characters, which do have value in and out of combat, especially on higher difficulty levels. Not every character needs to or should be a damage-dealer.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not like the game becomes unwinnable

I keep seeing this argument. Again, just because the game isn't "unwinnable", doesn't mean it's good/optimal design.

Video games are generally pretty easy for a seasoned player, as a rule. "Winnable" isn't a high bar to clear.

 

[Arkeus]

Sure, but those are party-based games, and if you are going to equate the effectiveness of the character overall with combat effectiveness, doesn't that kind off miss the point? If you create a thief, then doesn't it stand to reason that you are going to be less useful in direct combat as a warrior? How is that a problem? It's not like the game becomes unwinnable because you picked a class less ideal at damage-dealing.

It's a problem because your MC dying means you need to reload, and when your MC is the squishiest character who can't even deal damage, it's a problem.

Moreoever, you should be aware that people see their Bhallspawn differently than they see the companions, and having the MC be the weakest character of the party is not acceptable for 99% of gamers.

Also, in Dragon Age, rogues are arguably just as powerful as mages if they go dual-wielding + backstabs (lack of utility and AoE but huge DPS), and dual-wielding warriors can still steamroll the game. That also completely ignores tank characters, and support/utility characters, which do have value in and out of combat, especially on higher difficulty levels. Not every character needs to or should be a damage-dealer.

Bulshit. The only thing that Rogue can do that Mages can't do better is the whole hiding thing, but even then it just takes way too long to do any damage anyway.

The problem is, Rogue and Warriors in DA:O cannot do anything than a Mage can't do better, and they are also limited to very specific roles- and when a mage is a better tank than your tank-specialist warrior but also is a better CC than your other warrior/ogue and a better DPS than your rogue at the same time, it just shows those two classes are clearly "i chose nerf".

Playing Nightmare in DA:O without using pots with a mage is the same as playing a warrior/rogue on normal if you know how to play a mage, and on hard if not.

 

[Rake]

It's not like the game becomes unwinnable

Video games are generally pretty easy for a seasoned player, as a rule. "Winnable" isn't a high bar to clear.

If the above is true, then which class is better than the other and if some builds are "bad" are inconsequential anyway.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not like the game becomes unwinnable

Video games are generally pretty easy for a seasoned player, as a rule. "Winnable" isn't a high bar to clear.

If the above is true, then which class is better than the other and if some builds are "bad" are inconsequential anyway.

Not true. Beyond being "winnable" there's also the matter of "fun" or "more choices" or any number of other design goals I can put in quotes.