Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Rake]

It's not like the game becomes unwinnable

Video games are generally pretty easy for a seasoned player, as a rule. "Winnable" isn't a high bar to clear.

If the above is true, then which class is better than the other and if some builds are "bad" are inconsequential anyway.

Not true. Beyond being "winnable" there's also the matter of "fun" or "more choices" or any number of other design goals I can put in quotes.

All of them have nothing to do with which class is better. As long as the classes are fun to play and play different than one another, why does it matter if some classes are stronger than others when even the bad ones have no problem beating the game?

 

[Infinitron]

All of them have nothing to do with which class is better. As long as the classes are fun to play and play different than one another, why does it matter if some classes are stronger than others when even the bad ones have no problem beating the game?

Obviously, the designer of Pillars of Eternity believes that "some classes are stronger than others" is in contradiction with "fun maximization". Although I don't think "stronger" is the word he'd choose.

 

[Xeon]

Will the game have open or close endings?

Sorry, if that's not what they are called, I mean will the game ends after you kill the last boss/stage or will it continue?

 

[eremita]

All of them have nothing to do with which class is better. As long as the classes are fun to play and play different than one another, why does it matter if some classes are stronger than others when even the bad ones have no problem beating the game?

Obviously, the designer of Pillars of Eternity believes that "some classes are stronger than others" is in contradiction with "fun maximization". Although I don't think "stronger" is the word he'd choose.

That constant rattle about balance is only justified by the fact that this game is gonna be very combat oriented. I couldn't care less about class balance in PnP or in very complex CRPG. But if a majority of your game is about killing stuff and you're using class-based system, all of those classes should basically be warriors. If this is the case, by no means it's justifiable having one class that is better at everything compared to other classes (like with mages in DAO). It's not against "combat oriented" premise but against "party based + class system" premises... Or in other words: there's no point to them. Sawyer is completely right in this case.

 

[LivingOne]

motorizer, on 08 Mar 2014 - 3:10 PM, said:
I'm not all that sure what's new and what isn't, as I said, I don't read everything on here.



There is info about the cities and towns, a bit of backstory about the black woman with the feathery face, and an explanation some of the spells available to cyphers.



Plus a lot of stuff about how they want to make character generation more flexible and do away with the limitations of older games where you would be gimping yourself if you did something out of the ordinary.



Also some information about how your dialogue choices will affect your reputation in future rather than just being forgotten, giving the example that by repeatedly being aggressive you will get a reputation for boldness and people will react to that.



I had already seen most of the screenshots but there are a couple I hadn't seen before.



I'm sure the article will end up online on their site before too long.

motorizer, on 08 Mar 2014 - 4:47 PM, said:
Oh right, basically she's sworn to protect the interests of her Vailan homeland and it's dukes, but has rebelled against her superiors as she thinks she knows better, so she's a little conflicted.

And she's called Pallegina and is godlike, hence the feathers.

And she can join your party.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65533-uk-pc-gamer-article/​

 

[Roguey]

Will the game have open or close endings?

Sorry, if that's not what they are called, I mean will the game ends after you kill the last boss/stage or will it continue?

It'll probably be closed considering none of the IE games allowed you to continue playing after reaching the end, and they plan to let you import your characters/decisions into a sequel.

 

[hiver]

Nice.

 

[Hormalakh]

is this it?
http://www.pcworld.com/article/2071...ject-lead-josh-sawyer-the-full-interview.html

edit: nope. this is old.

 

[Xeon]

It'll probably be closed considering none of the IE games allowed you to continue playing after reaching the end, and they plan to let you import your characters/decisions into a sequel.

Thank you!!

 

[Zero Credibility]

But to requote Josh

I often felt like I shouldn't be designing games for the BG audience because I loathed the NPCs in BG/BG2/TotSC so much.

I know he was far from the only person responsible for that particular train wreck, but still - someone that was (even if it was for just the last year of development) in charge of a team that gave us NPCs of NWN2 OC should really be more careful of what comes out of his mouth.

He had nothing to do with the writing, aside from adding more depth to the King of Shadows, so not really.

He was fucking in charge, wasn't he? Hate BG NPCs all you want but even the most annoying and irritating of those at least had one thing going for them: they were not forced on the player. Didn't he see what god awful mess they created? Why the fuck were they at least not made optional? It's not because of the story because you could cut out most of them with no or next to no effect on it. It's like they were proud with what they created and decided that they just must inflict the result on the player. And that’s the part I do blame him for: he could have said "yeah, this is shit, so lets at least make it optional shit".

 

[Duraframe300]

But to requote Josh

I often felt like I shouldn't be designing games for the BG audience because I loathed the NPCs in BG/BG2/TotSC so much.

I know he was far from the only person responsible for that particular train wreck, but still - someone that was (even if it was for just the last year of development) in charge of a team that gave us NPCs of NWN2 OC should really be more careful of what comes out of his mouth.

He had nothing to do with the writing, aside from adding more depth to the King of Shadows, so not really.

He was fucking in charge, wasn't he? Hate BG NPCs all you want but even the most annoying and irritating of those at least had one thing going for them: they were not forced on the player. Didn't he see what god awful mess they created? Why the fuck were they at least not made optional? It's not because of the story because you could cut out most of them with no or next to no effect on it. It's like they were proud with what they created and decided that they just must inflict the result on the player. And that’s the part I do blame him for: he could have said "yeah, this is shit, so lets at least make it optional shit".

He wasn't.

Or to be more precise, he wasn't involved in the project at all till the last year of production. Before that he was working on a cancelled Action-RPG. The previous Lead Designer, Ferret Baudoin, just up and left the company one day to work for Bioware.

The only thing Sawyer was doing/could do was trying to salvage the mess created, he wasn't involved in any of the intial design.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I know. Yet the final product leaves much, much to be desired, especially when it comes to fucking stupid forced NPCs. He wants to talk about stupid NPC design? He should start with the game that ultimately has his name on it, even if he was in charge only the last year of production.

 

[eremita]

But to requote Josh

I often felt like I shouldn't be designing games for the BG audience because I loathed the NPCs in BG/BG2/TotSC so much.

I know he was far from the only person responsible for that particular train wreck, but still - someone that was (even if it was for just the last year of development) in charge of a team that gave us NPCs of NWN2 OC should really be more careful of what comes out of his mouth.

He had nothing to do with the writing, aside from adding more depth to the King of Shadows, so not really.

He was fucking in charge, wasn't he? Hate BG NPCs all you want but even the most annoying and irritating of those at least had one thing going for them: they were not forced on the player. Didn't he see what god awful mess they created? Why the fuck were they at least not made optional? It's not because of the story because you could cut out most of them with no or next to no effect on it. It's like they were proud with what they created and decided that they just must inflict the result on the player. And that’s the part I do blame him for: he could have said "yeah, this is shit, so lets at least make it optional shit".

He wasn't.

Or to be more precise, he wasn't involved in the project at all till the last year of production. Before that he was working on a cancelled Action-RPG. The previous Lead Designer, Ferret Baudoin, just up and left the company one day to work for Bioware.

The only thing Sawyer was doing/could do was trying to salvage the mess created, he wasn't involved in any of the intial design.

You guys do know that his name is not actually Ferret, right? Also, that guy was quite an experienced designer, working on Van Buren and KOTOR2... How could he fucked up NWN2 that much?

 

[Infinitron]

You guys do know that his name is not actually Ferret, right? Also, that guy was quite an experienced designer, working on Van Buren and KOTOR2... How could he fucked up NWN2 that much?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle

 

[eremita]

Yeah, sounds about right. I often forget that "Lead designer" post usually means being a good manager among other things.

 

[hiver]

Peter/Dilbert principle is very real and ive seen it many times in action. Codex mods are made almost exclusively on those bases, thats not the issue but... holy hell the proposed solutions in that wiki article are completely stupid. High fantasy land naivete.

 

[eremita]

holy hell the proposed solutions in that wiki article are completely stupid. High fantasy land naivete.

But they won a Nobel Prize for it!

I would say that reasonable solution are seminars + training. Corporate leadership training companies are quite popular these days (part of those seminars is of course evaluation of participants).

 

[hiver]

They did? Well fuck... then i can win one too, cause i have an idea that would actually work. Or atleast work better then those ideas, including the military systems that basically just do the same thing.
Seminars (or those other ideas) cannot be a solution for a system where the main goal is not efficiency but advancement through positions.

Since advancement to a "better" or just higher position is the main, or even only reward.

Where do i apply? Nobels have email?


/

There is info about the cities and towns, a bit of backstory about the black woman with the feathery face, and an explanation some of the spells available to cyphers.

Also some information about how your dialogue choices will affect your reputation in future rather than just being forgotten, giving the example that by repeatedly being aggressive you will get a reputation for boldness and people will react to that.

motorizer, on 08 Mar 2014 - 4:47 PM, said

Oh right, basically she's sworn to protect the interests of her Vailan homeland and it's dukes, but has rebelled against her superiors as she thinks she knows better, so she's a little conflicted.

And she's called Pallegina and is godlike, hence the feathers.
​

anyway, maybe im hoping too much but PoE might turn out to be that rare kind of semi-casual game that doesnt hurt my brain when i play it, or requests that i switch of most of higher brain functions in order not have blinding - vomit-rage episodes.
crap, now that i said it i ruined it, for sure.

 

[eremita]

They did? Well fuck... then i can win one too, cause i have an idea that would actually work. Or atleast work better then those ideas, including the military systems that basically just do the same thing.
Seminars (or those other ideas) cannot be a solution for a system where the main goal is not efficiency but advancement through positions.

Since advancement to a "better" or just higher position is the main, or even only reward.

Where do i apply? Nobels have email?


/

There is info about the cities and towns, a bit of backstory about the black woman with the feathery face, and an explanation some of the spells available to cyphers.

Also some information about how your dialogue choices will affect your reputation in future rather than just being forgotten, giving the example that by repeatedly being aggressive you will get a reputation for boldness and people will react to that.

motorizer, on 08 Mar 2014 - 4:47 PM, said

Oh right, basically she's sworn to protect the interests of her Vailan homeland and it's dukes, but has rebelled against her superiors as she thinks she knows better, so she's a little conflicted.

And she's called Pallegina and is godlike, hence the feathers.
​

anyway, maybe im hoping too much but PoE might turn out to be that rare kind of semi-casual game that doesnt hurt my brain when i play it, or requests that i switch of most of higher brain functions in order not have blinding - vomit-rage episodes.
crap, now that i said it i ruined it, for sure.

No the actual one. This one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize Hence the troll emoticon.

Frankly, i don't think that Obsidian is a company, where " the main goal is not efficiency but advancement through positions". They thought that he's gonna be a good lead because he was probably great designer. It is likely that he also thought that... If they had participated in some kind of seminar, they would probably find out that he can't manage shit.

 

[hiver]

There goes my Nobel... thanksa bunch.

 

[Roguey]

He was fucking in charge, wasn't he? Hate BG NPCs all you want but even the most annoying and irritating of those at least had one thing going for them: they were not forced on the player. Didn't he see what god awful mess they created? Why the fuck were they at least not made optional? It's not because of the story because you could cut out most of them with no or next to no effect on it. It's like they were proud with what they created and decided that they just must inflict the result on the player. And that’s the part I do blame him for: he could have said "yeah, this is shit, so lets at least make it optional shit".

He was lead designer for six months. They didn't have the time.

I didn't have a huge amount of creative input on the game as far as story or characters go. I worked a bit with George Ziets to develop the background of the King of Shadows as a tragic figure, but that was about it. I didn't develop the plot or any of the major characters outside of that.

Most of my time on the project was during the last six months. Since the majority of core content had already been developed, I was mostly in production triage mode trying to wrap up (or sever) loose ends.

It likely made the Wasteland 2 "beta" look like a polished product.

 

[Hormalakh]

so by the peter principle, if josh sawyer leads to PoE being a good game, doesn't necessarily mean that he's a good designer. He might just have had a team that kept his craziness in check eh?

 

[Roguey]

The Peter Principle would be Josh, a good designer, being promoted into a position he was bad at (leadership) based on his non-leadership design abilities, and this isn't the case, considering he keeps getting leadership positions and other people say he's a good leader.

 

[Volourn]

Yet.. ;project after projects he elad son are canceled. LMAO

 

[Dreaad]

As others have mentioned I've never really seen this mythical game where you can outright create a terribly broken or ineffective character unless you really try to.

In DA:O, taking a thief or a warrior means you are only 30% or so as strong as a Mage played and levelled up with the same efficiency.

In BG, making a non-dual/multi thief means you are, likewise, around 30% as capable as any other classes: you can 'make do' if you use other classes by using your companions, but a thief is plain useless in BG AND has low-life, meaning that the odds of you dying are much greater compared to any other classes (even mage, as you are useless as a thief).

In BG2, using a thief or a warrior is, likewise, nerfing yourself- unless you are playing a trapper.

Let's not even talk about the joke that's the Bard.

Your meta knowledge of BG2 classes is pretty bad. Single class bard and even single class thief is equal to a mage. Especially when you reach epic level skills....