Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Hormalakh]

i just typed it and changed it a little, in anticipation of certain difficulties i see with this mechanic. updated the above post.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/65858-too-combat-focused/?p=1433313

also i do realize that all the classes have the option to choose each skill, so dividing which "benefit" between them is fairly difficult. this is another difficulty that can be remedied by randomization and balance.

Basically, define what each skill will do mechanically, then figure out the value of each mechanic. split those skills which offer multiple mechanics for each class, and each class gets a portion of those mechanics. Since we aren't going for a "Realistic" perspective, any arbitrary division would work. Adjust as needed. Then apply talents to dilute the mechanics back into the general skill as described above.

 

[Athelas]

I'm glad this game isn't going the route of having three different skills just to open a damn container. Still, a bit more distinctive skill focus among classes would be nice.

I propose that the same skills do different things outside of combat. Inside combat, yes they can all utilize their skills for effectiveness. But outside, a ranger's survival should not be the same as the druid's survival. Perhaps one helps with reducing monster spawning, while another allows players to lengthen the effect of consumables.

Lore the same way: mages deal with magical lore, where as chanters, for example, deal with the lore of history etc.

This sounds cool and you should post it on the Obsidian forums.

 

[Excidium]

Ultimately, skills should be another way to distinguish the classes. The older D&D systems did this by making certain classes (rogues/thieves) skills-experts while other classes didn't have skills.

This is wrong, what about non-combat proficiencies

 

[imweasel]

This area was colonised by a race of people that are like black Renaissance Italians

Game banned in Italy.

Spoiler

I bet the first community will give these "Italians" the right skin color and facial features.

Spoiler

And send the Niggers back to Africa.

 

[Hormalakh]

This is wrong, what about non-combat proficiencies

i don't understand your question. what non-combat proficiencies?

So far the only skills we know about are stealth, lore, mechanics, survival, athletics. http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Skill

 

[Excidium]

I mean from D&D

 

[Hormalakh]

Oh I understand. I meant, in AD&D, rogues/thieves were the skill-experts as their mechanic, mages et al were the magic mechanic, fighters et al were the roll for damage mechanic, etc, as described by Sawyer.

In other D&D editions, this became more organized, but sawyer & co don't want 50 different skills as mentioned. I'm proposing a mechanic that allows the lower numbers of skills, but at the same time, allowing ways to distinguish between classes further. A sort of hybrid of the two systems, with options to "diversify" that skill with high-level talents.

 

[Rake]

I mean from D&D

Think IE game's D&D

 

[Hormalakh]

except for IWD2, of course.

 

[Excidium]

Ah ok then, IE games only implemented weapon proficiencies

 

[Abelian]

As a recap, all characters can invest in the Stealth skill, though certain classes (like rogues) have a head start in that department. You can have characters sneak individually or as a group and the gameplay consists of navigating the Stealth-based radii of your party members around the detection radii of potential enemies. Enemies have two stages to discovering a sneaking character. The first causes them to investigate. Once they get close enough (IF they get close enough), they will fully realize the threat and typically start combat (sometimes dialogue).

That sounds like a cool mechanic. It reminds me of the line of sight cone from Commandos. It would be nice if there was a way for players to know the detection radii of potential enemies.

 

[Hormalakh]

it automagically shows their radius always if i'm not mistaken.

 

[Infinitron]

AI: http://jesawyer.tumblr.com/post/79942961685/answering-about-ai-enemy-types-and-their-abilities

silkvalley asked: Answering about AI, enemy types and their abilities, Adam said that there will be some randomization on ability selection. What kind of randomization; AI randomly uses preassigned abilities or do enemies have some abilities randomly assigned? Will there be a substantial number of enemies that have all abilities/talents assigned by hand?

Abilities are never randomly assigned, but the AI may select semi-randomly from the abilities it has based on a variety of criteria. The creature is given a set of abilities in its prefab (data file) and then its instruction set has an entry for each of those abilities. Each entry has a relative weight and set of conditions applied to it. When the AI analyzes the validity for any entry’s conditions, it adds that entry’s weight into the mix and randomly selects from the valid choices.

E.g. this fake enemy has the following fake entries in its fake instruction set:

Cast Magic Missile - Condition: Enemy more than 3m away. - Weight 20

Cast Cure Light Wounds - Conditions: Ally with less than 50% Stamina, Ally less than 5m away. - Weight 40

Drink Potion - Condition Self at less than 50% Stamina. - Weight 80

Use Weapon - No Conditions - Weight 10

In this circumstance, assuming all conditions are true, the lowest entry, Use Weapon, has a 10/150 chance of occurring. Let’s say that all are true except Self at less than 50% Stamina. The only valid options are Cast Magic Missile (20/70 chance), Cast Cure Light Wounds (40/70 chance), or Use Weapon (10/70 chance). If none are true, there is a 10/10 or 100% chance the AI will use its weapon.

This is a very basic (and again, fake) example, but I hope it illustrates the basics of how the system works.

 

[Niektory]

So the AI is NOT deterministic after all.

 

[Hormalakh]

why are player conditions not considered? Or are they, but just not mentioned? There should be a lot of conditions considered to make sure it's a robust system.

 

[Infinitron]

So the AI is NOT deterministic after all.

Not deterministic, but with the correct set of weights it can still be highly predictable, which is what matters

why are player conditions not considered? Or are they, but just not mentioned? There should be a lot of conditions considered to make sure it's a robust system.

It's an example. They can make whatever condition they want to. It's not like the player gets to choose this stuff for his party like in Dragon Age, it's all behind the scenes

 

[Hormalakh]

i just hope they consider enough conditions to make the AI not-so-easily defeated.

 

[Niektory]

So the AI is NOT deterministic after all.

Not deterministic, but with the correct set of weights it can still be highly predictable, which is what matters

Well, yeah, but wouldn't it make this system kind of pointless? The design seems tailored for a somewhat unpredictable behavior. But that's contrary to what they said earlier so eh, I might be wrong.

 

[Abelian]

it automagically shows their radius always if i'm not mistaken.

Because this is the Codex, I'll now complain that I want to be able to toggle it off 'cause imershun.

 

[Roguey]

I think New Vegas had fine documentation.

I want all the information and to get that I either have to use the GECK or check the wiki.

ToEE had great documentation (an attribute of being based on P&P I think).

But Blackguards doesn't. When it comes to PC games it's a question of priorities.

 

[tuluse]

Didn't ToEE have to include documentation because of the OGL?

 

[Excidium]

Didn't ToEE have to include documentation because of the OGL?

TOEE isn't an OGL game, they had the actual D&D license.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Spoiler

I bet the first community will give these "Italians" the right skin color and facial features.

Spoiler

And send the Niggers back to Africa.

There's a difference between niggers and Italians?

Spoiler

 

[Roguey]

Didn't ToEE have to include documentation because of the OGL?

TOEE isn't an OGL game, they had the actual D&D license.

Yeah, it wasn't even part of the original design. It was positive feature creep.

 

[Grunker]

I think New Vegas had fine documentation.

I want all the information and to get that I either have to use the GECK or check the wiki.

ToEE had great documentation (an attribute of being based on P&P I think).

But Blackguards doesn't. When it comes to PC games it's a question of priorities.

Blackguards doesn't because Blackguards was made with next to no cash and some devs without experience. That and they found out they could just leech on the userbase (felipepepe) without giving much in return.

You're right though, but then that discussion doesn't have much to do with Cain.