Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Crooked Bee]

Aw, sugar Sawyer.

 

[Infinitron]

Aw, sugar Sawyer.

 

[tuluse]

Huh, sounds like they're going to way over deliver with this game. That will be a change of pace for kickstarters.

Arguably E:C way over delivered, but also the bulk of their money was not from ks.

 

[Sensuki]

I wonder if he's talking about pure game length, or length of the crit path

Hmm, not sure I like this faux-realistic approach. In IE games you chose weapons based on their cool magical special abilities, likewise for armor, for the most part. Trying to add to that too much mundane modifiers into it just muddles that up in a likely not very interesting, RPS way, and those rules have quite little to do with real combat either.

The system is basically:

1H Weapon, no shield = More accurate
1H Weapon, Shield = More Deflection (Heavier shields reduce accuracy)
2H Weapon = More damage per hit, slower attacks
Two Weapons = More attacks, less damage per hit

Weapons then have perks of their own

Daggers are fast and accurate
Sabres attack at normal speed and cause bleeding damage
Flails are fast and negate some of the deflection from shields

and so on

The weapons have different damage types (Slash, Pierce, Crush) and Different armor types have weaknesses.

Dual wielding daggers is the best vs no armor and an Estoc is the best versus the highest armor.

Obviously there's quite a bit of balancing to do to make sure there aren't any trash weapons but there's A LOT of choice in there.

ON TOP OF THAT, there's the type of steel the weapon or armor is made of:

Oromi / Glanfathan - trash steel, sucks
Wyflan steel - normal
March steel - more damage (Weapons), better DT (armor)
Ymyran steel - faster (weapons), lighter (armor)
Durgan - a little more damage, a little faster (weapons), a bit more DT, a bit lighter (armor)
Skein steel - not sure but it's supposed to be pretty boss, and "evil" to use

ON TOP OF THAT, there's also magical enchantments - such as fire, cold, acid, electric damage, spell-like abilities, all ranges of other effects.

ON TOP OF THAT - you can probably augment your desired build with perks so that you can use your desired weapon more of the time.

If anything that will just make Nathan Grayson's head explode and he'll call the game too confusing

 

[Sensuki]

Our team is still discussing whether or not we are going to do Early Access. Early Access has pros (influx of money, additional feedback from the community) and cons (releasing the game in an unfinished state to the general public, lesser impact of our final release), so it isn't really a slam dunk either way. As a gamer, I am not a huge fan of Early Access and I am usually wary of games that go that route. It is a good thing for some games (I think WL2 did a great job of using the money to help polish and finish out their game), but other games use it as an excuse to have a never-ending development.

PE's asset list and feature set is essentially locked at this point. There are still a large amount of bugs to fix and things to polish, but we aren't really generating additional content (besides audio, VFX, and a few B priority weapon and armor sets). Any money raised would likely into future projects (PE XP1).

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/66210-the-possibility-of-a-delayed-2015-release/page-4#entry1453767

 

[Infinitron]

Ah, they want dem insane launch day sales numbers. How AAA of you, Obsidian.

 

[Johannes]

I wonder if he's talking about pure game length, or length of the crit path

Hmm, not sure I like this faux-realistic approach. In IE games you chose weapons based on their cool magical special abilities, likewise for armor, for the most part. Trying to add to that too much mundane modifiers into it just muddles that up in a likely not very interesting, RPS way, and those rules have quite little to do with real combat either.

The system is basically:

1H Weapon, no shield = More accurate
1H Weapon, Shield = More Deflection (Heavier shields reduce accuracy)
2H Weapon = More damage per hit, slower attacks
Two Weapons = More attacks, less damage per hit

Weapons then have perks of their own

Daggers are fast and accurate
Sabres attack at normal speed and cause bleeding damage
Flails are fast and negate some of the deflection from shields

and so on

The weapons have different damage types (Slash, Pierce, Crush) and Different armor types have weaknesses.

Dual wielding daggers is the best vs no armor and an Estoc is the best versus the highest armor.

Obviously there's quite a bit of balancing to do to make sure there aren't any trash weapons but there's A LOT of choice in there.

ON TOP OF THAT, there's the type of steel the weapon or armor is made of:

Oromi / Glanfathan - trash steel, sucks
Wyflan steel - normal
March steel - more damage (Weapons), better DT (armor)
Ymyran steel - faster (weapons), lighter (armor)
Durgan - a little more damage, a little faster (weapons), a bit more DT, a bit lighter (armor)
Skein steel - not sure but it's supposed to be pretty boss, and "evil" to use

ON TOP OF THAT, there's also magical enchantments - such as fire, cold, acid, electric damage, spell-like abilities, all ranges of other effects.

ON TOP OF THAT - you can probably augment your desired build with perks so that you can use your desired weapon more of the time.

If anything that will just make Nathan Grayson's head explode and he'll call the game too confusing

Hmm. I think it's some kind of simulationfag side of me that mostly takes offense at this stuff. Like, 2-handed weapons are slow? Dual wielding daggers are actually good for anything but sneak attacks? Etc.. And why do they even have estocs in the game, as their own weapon class even - it has no cool factor whatsoever and is just a specialised longsword.

It's just... Either do these attributes in a way that has basis in reality, or just stick to fantastical stuff. But the quoted stuff just seems derpy to me.

 

[Athelas]

He's using the slam dunk terminology incorrectly. Feargus wouldn't approve.

Looks like my initial guess about them not necessarily needing Early Access was right. Still a bit of a surprise, though.

 

[Sensuki]

Hmm. I think it's some kind of simulationfag side of me that mostly takes offense at this stuff. Like, 2-handed weapons are slow? Dual wielding daggers are actually good for anything but sneak attacks?

It's not meant to be 100% realistic, this is a gamist system.

the difference in speed isn't "huge"

1H Fast weapons have a 20 frame (or 0.66 second) animation
1H Normal weapons have a 30 frame (1 second) animation
2H Weapons have a 40 frame (1.33 second) animation (guess)
(not sure about two weapons, probably adds somewhere between 0.5-1x frames of the second weapon)

Then there is a recovery time in between this which is 1 second long by default. Wearing armor increases the recovery time between attacks by a percentage. Plate might be say, 40% slower. so that makes the recovery time 1.4 seconds instead of 1.

An unarmored person wearing a dagger attacks every 1.66 seconds
A plate armored person with a Greatsword attacks every 2.73~ seconds

All of the system design is like this. Josh just isn't a simulationist. I was like you in that once I had an issue with some of the things, but to be honest I've gotten used to the idea over time and am now quite looking forward to testing it out.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't think you're really helping, Sensuki.

Johannes just doesn't want to think about the properties of mundane weapons, at all. MAGIC OR BUST.

(It's worth noting that the weapons in the IE games also had a concept of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing damage, although I don't really know how that was implemented in practice. They also had differing speed factors, which had a pretty minor effect.)

 

[Johannes]

Johannes just doesn't want to think about the properties of mundane weapons, at all. MAGIC OR BUST.

Not really. Just that if there is an elaborate system to mundane qualities of weapons it shouldn't be ridiculous rules pulled out of Josh's ass.

 

[MicoSelva]

Hey, if I can make a viable witcher-like (lightly-armored swordsman with high dodge and critical hit chance) character, all the power to Josh and Co. Roleplaying someone like this in Baldur's Gates was almost impossible.

 

[Sensuki]

Daggers are fucking awful in pretty much every game. In this game they'll be useful. I think that's a good thing.

That said if you try and kill someone in Plate mail with a dagger, you'll fucking struggle.

Not really. Just that if there is an elaborate system to mundane qualities of weapons it shouldn't be ridiculous rules pulled out of Josh's ass.

It's not hugely different from the IE games, the biggest difference is that there's no weapon proficiency and that the damage type value is expanded to armor.

IE game weapons had

Damage
Speed Factor (daggers were fast, heavier weapons were slower)
Damage Type (made a difference in who could wield it, and what creatures it was effective against)
Proficient?
Weight
Stat requirement
Magical Enhancements

PE Weapons have

Damage
Speed
Damage Type
---
Type of Steel (the equivalent of +1, +2 in Eternity)
Enchantments (like fire damage, etc)

^ Mechanically these cover Magical Enhancements

The only difference is that the damage type is expanded to armor type and creatures now, rather than just specific creatures - such as trolls and golems, which is more realistic than the IE system

And the rules for 1H, S&B, 2H, TWF are no longer tied into proficiency.

In BG2 you put weapon proficiency points into a weapon style - Single Weapon, Sword and Shield, Two Weapon and Two Weapon Fighting. PE has the same rules except there's no proficiency, it's just automatic instead.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It's worth noting that the weapons in the IE games also had a concept of Slashing, Piercing and Crushing damage, although I don't really know how that was implemented in practice. They also had differing speed factors, which had a pretty minor effect.

It was implemented but you didn't really notice it unless you were facing a specific enemy (skeletons taking less damage from arrows, clay golems requiring magic blunt weapons to kill).

What did make a difference in the first Baldur's gate (because you had low THAC0 for most of the game) was different to hit modifiers for different types of armor (chainmail had +2 penalty against blunt weapons, plate mail had a +3 bonus against slashing weapons, full plate had a +4 bonus against slashing and +3 against piercing etc.) so the weapon type you're using could make a difference depending on the type of enemy you're facing. Say you want to kill the leador of the Black Talons in the Bandit Camp who's decked in full plate, you'd have a much easier time hitting him with a hammer or a staff than with a sword.

 

[Sensuki]

Yeah my PC usually had like a -11AC vs Missile Weapons on top of wearing plate due to other items as well. Skeletons throwing Darts could only hit on a crit, which in the vanilla engine, happens quite often.

To be honest even though the specifics aren't the same. The PE system design has an IE feel for the most part.

 

[MicoSelva]

To be honest even though the specifics aren't the same. The PE system design has an IE feel for the most part.

Yes, it seems to be a much more complicated way to achieve more or less the same results. For me, pure .

 

[belated]

We wanted the game to have a deep role playing system, but the old Dungeons & Dragons rules were tough to get into. The basic principles were easy enough, but there were so many exceptions and special rules that it was hard and frustrating to relate to it. Therefore I wanted to make sure our system had to be as deep as a D&D game, but with more consistent and clear mechanics. We wanted it to be easier to get involved.

In the old games you spent a lot of time pausing the game, giving instructions, and then unpausing again - before beginning the process anew. This type of constant pausing and unpausing can be frustrating, or at the very least not very fun. So now we have an additional mode for the people wishing to avoid that, a combat setting where the time progresses at half the rate. You can switch between the modes, something many enjoy so they don't need to pause the game all the time.

In the beginning of the project people actually started thinking in terms of rounds. I had to put my foot down and ask them to start thinking in terms of actual time or animation length, as that is actually the timeunit we work with.

You know, I've played and experimented with role playing systems for almost 30 years now. It is in my nature to change things and create my own systems. This is still one of the few times I've had the opportunity to do something from scratch.

As a designer I don't want people to meet the wall and give up quickly. I want the players to play complex games, but I don't want games to be complex just to be complex.

So let's not do that [think about possible exceptions to rules]. Let's have a set of rules that are consistent across the board. Every class can have their own mechanics, but they are consistent after you have chosen which class you want to play. In this way you can learn the mechanics as you play. And when you eventually get the other classes their mechanics are consistent as well.

I really like making sets of rules, and I hope the veterans from the older games like this system - that they find it challenging and interesting. And I also hope those with less experience with role playing games or this type of game can get into it quickly and feel that they too are challenged. Because I like games being challenging, just not frustrating and hard to learn.

 

[Sensuki]

belated

Can you translate the IWD / BG2 bit. I think he meant Icewind Dale 2 because there's a large gap in content amount between IWD1 and BG2. A little more than IWD and not quite but close enough to BG2 are two different extremes.

 

[catfood]

In the old games you spent a lot of time pausing the game, giving instructions, and then unpausing again - before beginning the process anew. This type of constant pausing and unpausing can be frustrating, or at the very least not very fun. So now we have an additional mode for the people wishing to avoid that, a combat setting where the time progresses at half the rate. You can switch between the modes, something many enjoy so they don't need to pause the game all the time.

Or you could, you know, make a proper turn based system.

 

[Sensuki]

or use an RTS pause (no selection of units or ability to issue commands)

 

[FeelTheRads]

It's not like it wasn't already used in for example Game Of Thrones where it was annoying as fuck.

Hurray, we now have an additional annoying mode, not just one!

 

[belated]

It took us a while to get back into it, rediscovering how to best create these types of game areas. As soon as everything was on track, we could create large, beautiful areas very quickly. The game is now larger, yes, easily larger, than Icewind Dale. We're not quite up to Baldur's Gate 2 size, but it's close.

Q: What would it take for you to make a game of the same size as BG2?

I don't know. We'll have to see if we can make a sequel, and if so how quickly we can produce things. For us that was a large part of the preproduction this time, finding out how to make this type of game again. We worked with the Unity engine for the first time, and used Maya to create the areas in three dimensions. It's been a long time since we worked with a two-dimensional perspective.

As out designers become more accustomed to creating this type of game again, with the slightly old-fashioned way of structuring quests and other things, I think we can produce things much quicker. If Pillars of Eternity is a success, and we can spend more time, I believe we could do just that. For this particular game we wanted first and foremost to create a game worthy of the Infinity Engine games in size and ambition. And we realized that reaching Baldur's Gate 2 was likely outside our reach right now. Perhaps in the future.

Added since I though he said relationships with hobbits at first...

People in general, but perhaps RPG enthusiasts in particular, have very strong opinions. These opinions are often split in various directions and even though it's our job to listen to what they have to say, it's not our job to please everyone. Therefore we have to consider what will work for the majority, and what will give a good experience. For the people who feel cheated we'll have to do our best to explain our choices - be frank and honest without trying to hide what we do. That never works.

You try to treat them with respect. Some people want one specific thing. Let's say they want the opportunity to start relationships or hobbits or something like that. For some that's actually the one reason they want to play the game, and that's fine. We can't please everyone, and we're not trying to pretend that we can.

 

[Infinitron]

It's not like it wasn't already used in for example Game Of Thrones where it was annoying as fuck.

You keep bringing this up. Wasn't GoT an action-RPG, where you clicked to slash your weapon or whatever? I don't see how it's in any way comparable. You might as well mention Witcher 2's "slow motion" that activated when you popped up the quick menu.

It took us a while to get back into it, rediscovering how to best create these types of game areas. As soon as everything was on track, we could create large, beautiful areas very quickly. The game is now larger, yes, easily larger, than Icewind Dale. We're not quite up to Baldur's Gate 2 size, but it's close.

Q: What would it take for you to make a game of the same size as BG2?

I don't know. We'll have to see if we can make a sequel, and if so how quickly we can produce things. For us that was a large part of the preproduction this time, finding out how to make this type of game again. We worked with the Unity engine for the first time, and used Maya to create the areas in three dimensions. It's been a long time since we worked with a two-dimensional perspective.

As out designers become more accustomed to creating this type of game again, with the slightly old-fashioned way of structuring quests and other things, I think we can produce things much quicker. If Pillars of Eternity is a success, and we can spend more time, I believe we could do just that. For this particular game we wanted first and foremost to create a game worthy of the Infinity Engine games in size and ambition. And we realized that reaching Baldur's Gate 2 was likely outside our reach right now. Perhaps in the future.

Yeah, Athelas posted that already

 

[ZagorTeNej]

It's not like it wasn't already used in for example Game Of Thrones where it was annoying as fuck.

Hurray, we now have an additional annoying mode, not just one!

Worked fine for Myth: TFL.

 

[Athelas]

Yeah, Athelas posted that already

He's translating it for real, I used Google, which erroneously translated 'easily larger than Icewind Dale' to 'slightly larger than Icewind Dale' (among other errors).