Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Onholyservicebound]

 

[jdinatale]

Remind me again why I go on reddit. Top comment:

[QUOTE"]
This looks fantastic, but I'm a little worried they concentrated too hard on making the game look like classic crpgs. Everything just seems awfully dated, from the graphics which, despite being modern and quite pretty, still felt an awful lot like the old ones, to the UI design, which essentially hasn't changed at all. The reticle showing where your characters are going is exactly the same, ffs. I suppose I'll probably be crucified for saying it, but when creating a game of an old genre for a different era of gamers, it is necessary to look at it with a critical modern eye, or the only people you'll get are nostalgic gamers and not many new ones. As it is, I feel like that's the path Pillars of Eternity is going down.

Divinity: Original Sin, however, is a great example of a new game which is very much in the style of these classic crpgs, but manages to modernize itself enough to be usable by someone who has never played the genre before without losing any of what makes these games great. It had the attention of classic gamers who had nostalgia for that type of game, but managed to be sufficiently modern enough that people who had never played the genre could still get into it. And they did, in droves.

TL;DR Pillars of Eternity looks too much like the old crpgs to feel like a modern game, which might actually hurt it's sales.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Athelas]

Feargus is probably reading all that and deciding to make their next Kickstarter RPG wth 3d cam and stylized graphics.

 

[DefJam101]

The only thing you achieve with your fuming disgust is coming off like Roguey, except Roguey isn't butthurt, just a cunt sometimes.

Only sometimes?

Where are all the RTwP-faggots shitting up the Wasteland 2 and Underrail threads?

There aren't any, because no one likes RTwP.

Spoiler

I wonder what the Ground Zero event that caused this phenomenon was. I mean, the IE-games and Fallout came out at roughly the same time. The registration dates of the users who like one over the other is pretty similar. Both games steadily get more or less the same amount of votes when we poll the users for their favourite RPGs. Yet one game is worshipped by a small core of people with anger management issues who will somehow react to one game being criticized in one thread with a shitstorm of unseen proportions, while the other game being shat on by these exact people is business as usual.

My guess is that the 1980-1990s turn-based old guard hold a grudge against Baldurs Gate because it, ultimately, became the game modern 17 year olds think of when they hear the phrase "classic role-playing game" whereas Fallout fell into (relative) obscurity

 

[Grunker]

My guess is that the 1980-1990s turn-based old guard hold a grudge against Baldurs Gate because it, ultimately, became the game modern 17 year olds think of when they hear the phrase "classic role-playing game" whereas Fallout fell into (relative) obscurity

You're probably right.

 

[Infinitron]

Luckily Bethesda arrived to rescue Fallout from obscurity.

 

[Grunker]

Luckily Bethesda arrived to rescue Fallout from obscurity.

You know I almost made that joke, lol.

 

[sbb]

Remind me again why I go on reddit. Top comment:

[QUOTE"]
This looks fantastic, but I'm a little worried they concentrated too hard on making the game look like classic crpgs. Everything just seems awfully dated, from the graphics which, despite being modern and quite pretty, still felt an awful lot like the old ones, to the UI design, which essentially hasn't changed at all. The reticle showing where your characters are going is exactly the same, ffs. I suppose I'll probably be crucified for saying it, but when creating a game of an old genre for a different era of gamers, it is necessary to look at it with a critical modern eye, or the only people you'll get are nostalgic gamers and not many new ones. As it is, I feel like that's the path Pillars of Eternity is going down.

Divinity: Original Sin, however, is a great example of a new game which is very much in the style of these classic crpgs, but manages to modernize itself enough to be usable by someone who has never played the genre before without losing any of what makes these games great. It had the attention of classic gamers who had nostalgia for that type of game, but managed to be sufficiently modern enough that people who had never played the genre could still get into it. And they did, in droves.

TL;DR Pillars of Eternity looks too much like the old crpgs to feel like a modern game, which might actually hurt it's sales.

The target showing where your characters are going being the exact same was a bit much though, I thought.

 

[Mangoose]

"Old school in some aspects, but new school in having DPS skills based on short cooldowns for each character a la MMOs.

Seems like PoE isn't going that route."

That's funny that you make that claim when PE does have cooldown as does the recent so called (it's not) 'old skool' game DOS. LMAO

I haven't paid attention to PoE specifics much, which is why I said "seems," and I never called DOS old school, nor have I made a judgment on it as I haven't played it yet. R00fles.

From what I read months ago, the original design was that PoE cooldowns are "per-encounter" or "per-day" rather than "per-X_rounds/X-seconds" which make them more situational than MMO/MOBA-like. Or even DOS like. But that may have changed/may still change.

 

[Sitra Achara]

A couple of questions - what's the inspiration for the soul-powered lore? Is JES a believer?

 

[hoverdog]

My God, PoE does inspire extreme amounts of butthurt in the IE-haters, doesn't it? Why are Fallout fanboys so fucking angry all the time? Where are all the RTwP-faggots shitting up the Wasteland 2 and Underrail threads?

The only thing you achieve with your fuming disgust is coming off like Roguey, except Roguey isn't butthurt, just a cunt sometimes. Like Roguey you for some reason wish for RPGs to fail. It's mind-numbing.

I wonder what the Ground Zero event that caused this phenomenon was. I mean, the IE-games and Fallout came out at roughly the same time. The registration dates of the users who like one over the other is pretty similar. Both games steadily get more or less the same amount of votes when we poll the users for their favourite RPGs. Yet one game is worshipped by a small core of people with anger management issues who will somehow react to one game being criticized in one thread with a shitstorm of unseen proportions, while the other game being shat on by these exact people is business as usual.

Baldur's Gate didn't rape your beloved genre. Baldur's Gate didn't result in zero Fallouts for years to come. Baldur's Gate didn't create Fallout 3. Fallout and the IE-games did pretty much equally well and both concepts were dropped in favor of shitty modern concepts. Take a chill pill for God's sake.

 

[Mangoose]

Yo' I'll do a BG1 play through or something as a test run for my PE play through. If I get time I might start it tomorrow.

Finished last year. Finalizing my install for a BG2 run atm.

Isn't PoE supposed to be more like IWD/2 than BG/2?

Fixed. The sad thing is this really is the period of RPGs, but you stupid faggots are too stupid to see the real incline, and are falling for stupid marketing buzzwords with games that are completely missing the mark.

Pillars of Eternity may end up becoming the only RPG in existence to meet my standards of writing, role-playing, reactivity, combat, customization, and art. Underrail and Darkest Dungeon certainly won't.

Again isn't PoE supposed to be an IWD-like? So not a lot of role-playing reactivity, though good combat, customization and art? That being said I'm perfectly okay if they add more role-playing and reactivity. Actually, more than okay, I'd be pretty damn happy.

I have some hopes for Torment, too.

The exception being, possibly, Dungeon Siege 3, but thats probably their most simple and risk free (as in by the numbers clone) game to day.

While lower-risk and by-the-numbers in many elements, DS3 wasn't a clone of anything. It was heavily inspired by multiple titles, sure.

Man I liked DS3 a lot, almost in all aspects (great feel to the combat), but the too-zoomed-in camera was a huge dealbreaker when I played it. I mean I can't say it's a bad game at all, I just had to quit playing because the camera hampered the action gameplay for me. I think I'll give it another try later.

 

[Grunker]

Isn't PoE supposed to be more like IWD/2 than BG/2?

Not really. Well, in its systems and combat content, yeah, I think you're right. But in terms of conversations, pre-set companions with lots of banter, interactive storyline, semi-open world (content-gated instead of fully railed like IWD) and so on, nope. The official goal was to merge IWD dungeons, IWD2 combat, Baldur's Gate adventuring, BG2 open-ness and companions and Planescape: Torment story quality and interactivity. So best of all worlds, so to speak. Whether they will meet these lofty goals is anyone's guess.

I'm not sure where you got the IWD-like from. One of the game's draws is that it has two major cities, where at least one is Athkatla-like in size and content-type. That's p. much as far from IWD as they come in terms of IE-ness

 

[Mangoose]

I'm not sure where you got the IWD-like from.

Mostly a recollection of what Roguey said a long time ago. Quite possibly a misunderstanding or bad memory from my part, Roguey, so not pointing fingers or anything.

Definitely sounds better than what I had thought.

 

[Roguey]

From what I read months ago, the original design was that PoE cooldowns are "per-encounter" or "per-day" rather than "per-X_rounds/X-seconds" which make them more situational than MMO/MOBA-like. Or even DOS like. But that may have changed/may still change.

There are a few seconds-long cooldowns but they're not powers related. Like if a mage switches grimoires or a character switches weapons there'll be cooldowns before you can do it again.

And of course attacks themselves have a cooldown.

 

[Mangoose]

From what I read months ago, the original design was that PoE cooldowns are "per-encounter" or "per-day" rather than "per-X_rounds/X-seconds" which make them more situational than MMO/MOBA-like. Or even DOS like. But that may have changed/may still change.

There are a few seconds-long cooldowns but they're not powers related. Like if a mage switches grimoires or a character switches weapons there'll be cooldowns before you can do it again.

Gotcha.

And of course attacks themselves have a cooldown.

Auto attacks right? Not like you have to select the attack every time it goes off cooldown. That's the banal thing I don't like that's been added to some RTWP games. I like attacks/spells to be situational (a la once an encounter or per day) rather than "must keep clicking DPS attack to maximize DPS."

Funny thing is that MOBAs kinda do it right, because of the emphasis on minute(s)-long-cooldown Ultimate abilities, but when that type of system is put it in an RPG (well, Aarklash is the only one I can think of) you have to keep activating a minor short cooldown skill every 5 seconds.

 

[Grunker]

Auto attacks right?

Yeah, Roguey just means that attack speed (as in, animation time between auto-attacks) can be considered a cooldown. It's functionally identical I suppose.

I also detest cooldowns in singeplayer real time games (for the reasons sea explained in the article he wrote about it), and I think the criticism of them is legitimate. I liked DA:O, but its cooldown use was unnecessary. Roguey keeps baiting that people don't mind cooldowns in D:OS, but cooldowns function wholly differently in turn-based environments.

 

[Spockrock]

Again isn't PoE supposed to be an IWD-like? So not a lot of role-playing reactivity

I have to assume it has been a long time since you played Baldur's Gate (I hope for the sake of your own argument you're not trying to bring Torment into the discussion). BG had 0 (zero) reactivity. and BG2 had it in such small amounts I wouldn't name it one of that game's strong sides

 

[mindx2]

I haven't been following the development as religiously as some around here (*cough* Roguey *cough*) but has anything been said about the implementation of the Mega Dungeon? I really enjoyed Durlag's Tower in BG and was wondering who was taking on this huge task. A 13 level mega dungeon has to account for a huge part of production since they have also promised 2 big cities and a stronghold, correct? Have they discussed this part or hinted at what's inside? Hopefully they don't pull a Larian and change the mega dungeon as I'm looking forward to that part quite a bit.

 

[Mangoose]

Auto attacks right?

Yeah, Roguey just means that attack speed (as in, animation time between auto-attacks) can be considered a cooldown. It's functionally identical I suppose.

I also detest cooldowns in singeplayer real time games (for the reasons sea explained in the article he wrote about it), and I think the criticism of them is legitimate. I liked DA:O, but its cooldown use was unnecessary. Roguey keeps baiting that people don't mind cooldowns in D:OS, but cooldowns function wholly differently in turn-based environments.

Sounds good and I agree with the rest of what you said, too. My principle has always been that party-based real-time games need to focus less on micromanagement and more on macromanagement. Cooldowns - and mainly short cooldowns - add too much micromanagement. What PoE is intending is similar to what my thoughts have been on possible RTWP solutions - modal aka toggleable abilities, situational on-activation abilities like Wild Sprint, engagement 'stickiness.' Of course it always stands to see if implementation will actually be beneficial.

To add to this I'd like to be able to toggle modal abilities, or even activate stuff like Wild Sprint, without needing to click on individual portraits. Being able to see and toggle abilities of your entire party all at once cuts down on the necessity to pause.

As an aside, though, I think engagement should literally stop movement, and then the player can decide whether to disengage. Auto-pause on engagement is, yes, a similar method, but I think literally stopping movement is better just in terms of ease and fluidity of play. Again, not a gameplay mechanics issue, I just think combat and the engagement mechanic will 'feel' better like this.

I still haven't played much of DOS so I can't say if the cooldown system works.

 

[Mangoose]

Again isn't PoE supposed to be an IWD-like? So not a lot of role-playing reactivity

I have to assume it has been a long time since you played Baldur's Gate (I hope for the sake of your own argument you're not trying to bring Torment into the discussion). BG had 0 (zero) reactivity. and BG2 had it in such small amounts I wouldn't name it one of that game's strong sides

'K.

 

[Infinitron]

BG1 did not have much C&C/reactivity, but it wasn't zero.

 

[Delterius]

From what I read months ago, the original design was that PoE cooldowns are "per-encounter" or "per-day" rather than "per-X_rounds/X-seconds" which make them more situational than MMO/MOBA-like. Or even DOS like. But that may have changed/may still change.

It appears to depend on the class. As a part of progression, wizard's lower circle spells go from being under a per encounter or even per day cooldown into a lower tier. This may not be the case across the board.

 

[Grunker]

I haven't been following the development as religiously as some around here (*cough* Roguey *cough*) but has anything been said about the implementation of the Mega Dungeon? I really enjoyed Durlag's Tower in BG and was wondering who was taking on this huge task. A 13 level mega dungeon has to account for a huge part of production since they have also promised 2 big cities and a stronghold, correct? Have they discussed this part or hinted at what's inside? Hopefully they don't pull a Larian and change the mega dungeon as I'm looking forward to that part quite a bit.

They haven't, but unlike Larian I feel pretty confidant that they will deliver. Won't speak to the quality of said delivery, though.

 

[Sensuki]

A couple of questions - what's the inspiration for the soul-powered lore? Is JES a believer?

From my 2012 interview:

http://au.cybergamer.com/article/3083/page-2/Interview-with-Josh-Sawyer-of-Obsidian-Entertainment/

One of the first things mentioned about Project Eternity was the concept of Souls being important and a source of power, that you were interested what world building ideas are generated from that design mechanic.
Where did the inspiration behind this concept come from ? I've heard many people mention NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer, although I personally thought of Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader.

It actually came out of some thoughts I had about the physical and metaphysical underpinnings of our own world. When worldbuilding, I think a lot of designers want to explain everything up front. There's obvious value in defining how the world works because it helps everyone wrap their heads around what the setting is about. Over the years, I've felt that breaking down the supernatural into easy-to-comprehend chunks drains the magic from it.

Compare this to our own observation and understanding of the physical world. Public reaction to the discovery of the Higgs boson particle was very telling. Despite the scientific community's general requests to stop calling it the "God particle", the public and media couldn't help themselves. A discovery that potentially explains, if not the "why", at least the "how" of existence is appealing.

Project Eternity's world has a similar level of flawed understanding. They can perceive souls, they can detect and record some data about them, they can verify their findings to a certain extent, but they still don't really "get" how it all works. Arguably of greater importance, they don't understand why souls work (and don't work) the way that they do. Individuals also don't agree on the role the gods play in the cycle. Last week, our art director, Rob Nesler, came in and asked me, "Are the gods actually gods or just beings of immense power?" While there aren't many people in the world of Project Eternity who deny the existence of gods, that question is one that people in the setting have debated for millennia.