Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

You'd be surprised, Josh. People can't get enough of that shit, apparently.

U butthurt, bro?

Anyway, if it's true that we now have extremely long cooldowns in place of resting, than now you get to wait instead of walk. IRL rest spamming!

 

[Storyfag]

Here is something I would like to hear opinions on. Take the following circumstance, which is not uncommon in the IE games and would be somewhat similar to the KotC "campsite" system in circumstances were you are not locked off from backtracking to a campsite.

* You are in a location where resting is either prohibited or extraordinarily likely to result in an encounter. You do not know the location of the next campsite/safe resting area.
* You have cast many of your spells and the ones that remain are not entirely appropriate for the encounters you are now facing.
* Because you came from an area where you could rest and are not locked in the location, you have a cleared (by you) path back to the area where you can safely rest.
* It will take you three minutes of real time to walk back to the camp, maybe thirty seconds to reconfigure spells, five seconds to rest, and another three minutes of real time to walk back to where you had left off.
* Because you killed everything between you and the campsite, there are no threats between you and the campsite.

In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60875-merged-cooldown-thread/page__st__300#entry1220117

Somebody ask him if he ever played Diablo I

Plus, realistically speaking, if you attack a guarded area, then leave and return later, you should discover that it has been reinforced somehow (but maybe led to other areas being undermanned?). If we're talking about wilderness, your former battlefield should now be crawling with scavengers.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?

Let's take one situation which is bad and then pretend everything about the system is bad because of that.
Of course, it's much better to wait for the cooldowns to end. Wait, what, no waiting? Install refill after combat then maybe? Brilliant.

Actually, that's not a bad idea - instant refill of cooldowns once you're out of combat would save on a few minutes of sitting on your thumbs after every other fight, pretending you're being tactical.

 

[Phelot]

I like the idea of resting for MOAR magic, it's just that nearly every game that features such a system also features hordes of trash mobs which effectively breaks the entire system making it tedious. I really liked the Dwarven Pit in Realms of Arkania 2. To me, it was a well done dungeon while still requiring you to rest. The key was that the encounters were IIRC all hand placed and had a purpose, typically to guard a tomb or the result of triggering a trap.

 

[FeelTheRads]

People can't get enough of that shit, apparently.

Well, you and Josh certainly solved it. Wouldn't want to ruin that cinematic experience. What? Go back? Are you crazy? It would mean there's somebody I can't kill at first sight! What's this shit?

It probably is, if the cooldown times are well balanced and you have to think of when to use what spell instead of spamming them non-stop.

Yes, that can be done but Vancian can't be done in such a way that you can't spam rest non-stop. I see.

 

[Shannow]

I for one love Vancian in CRGPs and believe the "spam - rest - fight" trifecta is a result of poor random encounter design. Resting should be dangerous, lethal even if done in a dangerous place. Monsters should set traps and possibly even ambushes if you chose to rest mid-dungeon.

I fucking love the way Chaos Chronicles will handle this. You can't save in a dungeon (have to be in town), so using spells sparingly becomes a key importance, but no so sparingly you end up losing the fight, because you can't reload.

So the Vancian spell system will actually work, because you can't just reload.

Reloading is a minor issue. In fact it becomes an issue only if the spell system is sufficiently complex (and preparing the right spells actually matters, which isn't the case in most games). The main question is 'can you rest anywhere you want?'

Actually it's quite the issue and encourages using spels sparingly and effectively. You have the choice between resting and perhaps triggering an ambush while you're already low on spells and thus being killed or trudging back to town for safe resting and saving.

I'd make resting interact with skills (setting up sentries, traps, binding wounds, searching the near area, searching for herbs, etc) which affect the effectiveness of HP/mana regain, curing of wounds, poisons, diseases, etc. Truly safe places would cost gold. At least semi-safe places would be required to even try resting. And then make time a resource: certain areas get more dangerous over time, certain quests fail or change, certain creatures/npcs move away from where you were told you'd find them, etc.

If resting is nothing but a full recharge that takes 5 seconds you might as wll leave it out and give the player a full recharge after every encounter and save those seconds...

 

[FeelTheRads]

Actually, that's not a bad idea - instant refill of cooldowns once you're out of combat would save on a few minutes of sitting on your thumbs after every other fight, pretending you're being tactical.

o_O

And what are you talking about? Resting is not sitting around for minutes. That's for long cooldowns and I haven't advocated that.
And yes, it's a bad idea. Where is that spell preservation then? Might as well have quick cooldowns and be done with it.

 

[Dexter]

I find it hilarious that you're all clamouring over how a goddamn BG clone isn't going to be old-school enough. Baldur's fucking Gate wasn't oldschool enough, it was RTwP popamole decline with immature romance shit and BIOWARE-FUNNY companions, like fucking Minsc. Cooldowns or not, this game does not have to be great to be better than BG.

It's also in its whole glory as a Trilogy one of the best CRPG experiences ever made xD

and those fucks that voted baldurs gate 2 can fuck right off.

Well, gee thanks
Not to say that ToEE doesn't make sense since the game is RtWP. And let's be honest, Obsidian could never into combat.

Anyway, I pledged the Minimum amount some time ago (figure even if it sucks ass, it will at least suck less ass than any "RPGs" coming out nowadays) and am still waiting for any news to convince me to get anything higher, like the physical box or "collector edition" as with Wasteland 2. But at the moment Sawyer for me is just too much of a liability.

Therefore, the cooldowns are the only options here. While they are mostly associated with shitty MMO and "watch the cooldowns" mini-game, there is no reason to believe that they can't be done well, because in a nutshell, every magic system is designed to restrict spellcasting in some way. As Feargus pointed out, DnD's X number of use per day abilities are nothing but very long cooldowns. From this point of view, cooldowns definitely work and they can work very well, as long as they aren't too fast.

Do point out a single example in which they worked well, imo it is also one of the largest banes of the MMO genre that they can't seem to finally drop that crap. I was actually more fine with Ultima Onlines reagent system than that...

Games with good exploration: Dark Souls, Demon's Souls, Gothic 1 & 2
Games with bad exploration: Oblivion and Skyrim
Oh, would you look at that. All the games with good exploration had no level scaling, and the ones that did have were boring to explore. What a coincidence!

This, so very much this, although you can include Risen in the "good exploration" part and Fallout 3 in the "bad exploration" part.
As with the cooldown system, I've NEVER seen a proper story/exploration-based game with a static world enriched by Level-Scaling, Bethesda is the prime example for this, since they're trying to make the system work for the last dozen years and always fumble and fall, they have rather employed LESS level scaling in their latest games than more.

It CAN work if the changes are really minor e.g. somewhat stronger bosses or SOME encounters being changed/improved, but I wouldn't really call if Level-Scaling then.
The only games I've seen it work out pretty good were ARPGs like Diablo 2 or Torchlight etc. where only click things dead over and over and it doesn't really matter much what these things are (e.g. enemies and encounters are pretty much replaceable), you can even pick up "Maps" from vendors and go kill randomly generated stuff and it still works.

I don't believe Obsidian of all companies (remember Alpha Protocol or the fighting system in PS:T?) will suddenly do it (or Cooldowns) "right".

And as per my earlier conversation with Shadenuat I'm actually at the moment more concerned about what they will do in regards with story and similar... what we've seen so far was rather, well let's put it like this.

Work under restrictions from licensing and publisher:

Create your own fantasy world from scratch without any licensing restrictions or publisher intereference:
Dull looking fighter type and feminism-approved female fighter::

And there's apparently still people complaining that the armor isn't realistic enough and the game needs more realuuuusm.


Which is fucking curious since some of the more mainstream PC gaming sites had these articles going for months, drumming up interest with hundreds of replies and requests for love-making with Avellone if he brings a Planescape sequel:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...y-day-gives-planescape-dev-kickstarter-fever/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/02/10/obsidian-want-to-know-what-you-want-them-to-make/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/25/avellone-tempted-to-kickstart-planescape-2-do-it/
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/08/21/ave-a-long-look-at-obsidians-planescape-sequel-wishlist/

 

[FeelTheRads]

Also this:

Here is how the Vancian system works in RPGs. It's either "rest, empty your spellbook at the monsters, rest again" or go back to the nearest rest location. I'm not sure which approach is worse, actually.

Here's how cooldowns work in RPGs: spam, wait, spam, wait, spam, wait.

 

[Excidium]

lol @ people arguing Vancian vs Cooldowns

 

[Gozma]

Well I mean there is that obvious solution - every fight should be a cunningly designed and interesting set piece, with no shitfights whatsoever. If an RPG is made that way I'll be pretty fucking surprised! Get Sawyer to say that they'll do that.

...

I... always assumed this was obvious.

Obsidian does have a track record here. That track record is a twisting corridor with a RTwP shitfight every 20 steps with resting in between. Get Sawyer to say it's all set pieces.

 

[Shannow]

VD advocating waiting for cooldowns as being a better mechanic than searching for safe places to rest because you don't have to walk around... Ok, seems I've been gone longer than I thought. (Yeah, I know you're talking about back-tracking through empty areas, but that "problem" can be solved in so many ways and made interesting while waiting for cooldowns is plain boring... It's not even funny.)

 

[Cynic]

Sawyer is NOT a bro.

There are so many solutions to this problem, but of course, all of them will make the game more challenging and less inviting to casuals. He's already made it blatantly clear though that he doesn't want to scare them with spending skill points on non combat skills for instance.

He's asking the question in a rhetorical fashion. He's already made up his mind and right now he's just trolling to give the impression that he gives a shit.

 

[Jaesun]

Well you wan whine and complain or fight the good fight with your voice.

Answers Sawers question on the forum.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Actually it's quite the issue and encourages using spels sparingly and effectively. You have the choice between resting and perhaps triggering an ambush while you're already low on spells and thus being killed or trudging back to town for safe resting and saving.

Only in theory (or PnP). You know as well as I do that in modern RPGs combat difficulty is low and an ambush is nothing but a source of free loot.

 

[Kz3r0]

I asked Matt on Facebook btw, and he told me that we will see the interviewin the next Matt Chat.

Great Matt J_C.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Well you wan whine and complain or fight the good fight with your voice.

Answers Sawers question on the forum.

Dude. He has been working on developing game for how many years now?

 

[wormix]

Eh, the problem with 'trash fights' is there's usually infinite resting which can undermine their entire point (slowly wear down the player).
Only allowing resting once per 'floor' of a dungeon/area would fix half the complaints I see about the Vancian system.

Backtracking to town is an admission of defeat. I seriously doubt anyone does that as their main strategy for fights.
Does changing an entire system around this option really make any sense?

 

[Captain Shrek]

Eh, the problem with 'trash fights' is there's usually infinite resting which can undermine their entire point (slowly wear down the player).
Only allowing resting once per 'floor' of a dungeon/area would fix half the complaints I see about the Vancian system.

Backtracking to town is an admission of defeat. I seriously doubt anyone does that as their main strategy for fights.
Does changing an entire system around this option really make any sense?

THe problem with trash combat is trash combat.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

VD advocating waiting for cooldowns as being a better mechanic than searching for safe places to rest because you don't have to walk around... Ok, seems I've been gone longer than I thought. (Yeah, I know you're talking about back-tracking through empty areas, but that "problem" can be solved in so many ways and made interesting while waiting for cooldowns is plain boring... It's not even funny.)

Such as?

(no sarcasm, I'm curious)

 

[J_C]

. He's already made it blatantly clear though that he doesn't want to scare them with spending skill points on non combat skills for instance..

I don't recall him saying that.

 

[tuluse]

Actually it's quite the issue and encourages using spels sparingly and effectively. You have the choice between resting and perhaps triggering an ambush while you're already low on spells and thus being killed or trudging back to town for safe resting and saving.

Only in theory (or PnP). You know as well as I do that in modern RPGs combat difficulty is low and an ambush is nothing but a source of free loot.

Maybe, but if that's the case, why is there any combat in the game at all?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Also this:
Here's how cooldowns work in RPGs: spam, wait, spam, wait, spam, wait.

You can easily fix it. Fixing the Vancian system (to work well in CRPGs) is a lot harder.

 

[Shadenuat]

Work under restrictions from licensing and publisher:

Really Dexter, how often are you going to post that shit everywhere. Morte would still be memorable character if he was just a human TNO've pulled out of some "well of dead souls" or something. Character does't have to be a walking toybox with four arms and wings to be interesting, see Witcher or Game of Thrones RPG. There's nothing wrong with both of these types of character creation approach.

 

[Livonya]

Sawyer: In this circumstance, what is good about the experience of walking back to the campsite?

You'd be surprised, Josh. People can't get enough of that shit, apparently.

I actually laughed out loud. Well played.