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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Darth Roxor

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For the love of Christ, Sawyer is at it again.

"No misses" policy sucks massive dongs everywhere except in the Gothic games, and those are a tiny bit of a different deal
 

Tigranes

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Meh, I think there's a lot of overreacting. The IE games had extreme consistency in gameplay mechanics only because of the D&D license; look at the differences each game made compared to another in level design, plot, etc and you can see it is more about a philosophy or style. There's no 'lying' involved, there's the same reinvention within the subgenre and rethinking within a style that every IE game had done, except when D&D cannot be used, it is happening to game mechanics.

So the drama is pointless - the only question is whether specific changes will lead to good RPG combat. I think health/stamina will, I'm less sure about this one. I don't really see it improving much, while I can clearly see the disadvantages. As I said in Obsidian forums:
I like the idea that combat is always risky, and you can't get out of being damaged, because that introduces a desirable element of attrition into adventuring as a whole (you can steamroller 50 opponents but at the end they will have worn you out). But I think there are pitfalls in implementation that will have to be worked around:

(1) Why the absolute figure of half damage on a perfect miss? Why not a sliding scale with a fixed minimum (say, 25%)?
(2) Tactical poverty. The idea of monsters or PCs that hit very hard but not very reliably, or ones that hit very reliably but for not much, etc. become immediately only half as effective or striking. In this system, why do I want to invest in dodging? Why do I want to invest in greater to-hit chance? Wouldn't I be encouraged to just build all my characters to keep on hitting and have high stamina/health in order to survive a battle of short-term attrition?
(3) There is excitement in missing, and your opponents missing; even better with critical misses. Times when you escape death and claim victory because of an opponent's critical miss, etc - those dramatic instances now become only half as likely to occur in the first place.

Most importantly, from a player's point of view, I simply don't see much benefit in removing perfect misses. They never bothered me before. Sure, there have been cases in existing games where you miss far too much, say, in earlier levels (e.g. non-combat oriented character vs. the plants in FO2 starting area), or systems where far too much is due to chance and encourages reloaditis, but it has never been that big of a problem in well designed games... so why incur the above costs by messing with it?

Of course, the last point is that these things keep changing. Fairly large game elements change pretty late in development - it's just that we used to hear all those things after we played the game. It's not so upsetting to hear, after you already found Dogmeat in FO1, that he was inserted pretty much in 5 minutes of development time. It's more upsetting to hear devs saying "oh maybe we'll have a random dog in there called Dogshit (which was the original 'vision')" 8 months away from release.
 

Lord Andre

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Dragon Age 3 is gonna' be the bestest game evar. LOL I can't wait for it to come out !!!! GOTY, awesomest experience evar lolz...Wait, wrong thread ? But how comes its so similar ?!?
 
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I remember arguing with VD over his idea that guaranteed hits were the reason for hp inflation in DA, and the idea was as retarded then as now. Statistically, guaranteed hits are just like crits hitting no matter what. The only difference is in the extreme cases where you get no/very few crits or all/a lot of crits. All of the IE's were hack'n'slashy enough that the amount of attacks were so large that this was extremely unlikely...

So again, codexers are taking an extremely marginal example, that of no/all crits, and pretends it is the cornerstone of good ahr peh geeh design.
 

Shannow

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No misses?!?
What is this shit?
Oh, Obsidian. That answers it. You can't expect good gameplay from them. Should have known. Shouldn't have donated. Well, you live and learn. (And keep repeating the same mistakes anyway.)
Well, perhaps the game will at least not be buggy... I joke, of course.
 

roshan

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This game sounds worse with every update. Obsidian just scammed 3 million bucks from IE fans.

The idea that the half damage "miss" system merely regularizes damage over time is fucking stupid. It also reduces the gulf between powerful and weak characters to levels of insignificance. In 3rd edition, for example (I'm going to ignore critical hits for now and focus on attack rolls), you roll a 20 to see if you hit or miss, and this is modified by your AB and then compared to the enemies AC. In such a system, if you're enemy has a much higher AC, you might only be able to hit him one out of 20 times.

In a 50% damage system, you will always be at LEAST half as effective as the most powerful character. This means that the weakest melee/ranged character in Project Eternity will be 10 times more effective than the weakest character in the IE games. The most powerful characters in PE, as opposed to being twenty times as effective, are now only twice as effective as the weakest. This takes all the fun out of trying different builds and powergaming your stats. Any character you create will be able to win any battle as long as you have enough healing resources at hand. All characters of all classes and races are now practically equals - character development choices are now reduced to irrelevant LARPing decisions.

The attrition argument that has been brought up is also a very good and relevant one. If a powerful enemy, let's say a dragon, always takes damage every attack, all you need to do to defeat them is to outlast them. What made so many enemies such a bitch to defeat in the IE games was that some times you couldn't figure out how to hit them in the first place - therefore, you had to try other strategies, or come back with better stats. Had you been doing half damage per attack, all that would be required to win any battle would be to bring as much healing resources as possible. No matter how much the enemy's hit points are increased, you as a player would always be able to kill them - it would just take longer.

This game is being created by left wing morons, for left wing morons.
 

Surf Solar

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I don't see how the "no miss" system (fucking sucks btw) has anything to do with the "left wing morons".
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
No misses???? Why, Josh, why? Why are you making stupid design decisions one after the other? It was so thrilling in the IE games when I had only a few HP remaining, with no healing, and I tried to get to the next safe spot without receiving any damage. I can't do that here because the monsters will surely hit me, at least for a few HP.
 

Zakhad

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...if you're enemy has a much higher AC...


This game is being created by left wing morons, for left wing morons.

"you're enemy"
"you're"

Then introduces irrelevant political vitriol.

And other people are the "morons" here?


Cool post, man.
 

oscar

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memorable companions ... Baldur’s Gate

:lol:

This game sounds worse every update. Real-time, cool-down based combat obviously trying to pander to the Dragon Age/MOBA fanbase (fucking dice rolls mang what is dis shit??).
 

Arkeus

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In a 50% damage system, you will always be at LEAST half as effective as the most powerful character. This means that the weakest melee/ranged character in Project Eternity will be 10 times more effective than the weakest character in the IE games.

Ah, reading comprehension, where did it go.

So, what is actually happening in PE so far is: If a weak character usually do 3-8 damage, he will always do at least 1 on misses (3/2). THEN you calculate things like armors (magical, natural, physical), which means it will probably be 0.

A 'Strong' character however would do 15-20, so 7 on misses (15/2), and then you factor the enemies' armor.

And obviously, all of this doesn't take into account things like special feats and active abilities to dimnish damages from misses, or to increase damage on enemies, and so on.
 

Hormalakh

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Where did you get that they will do 0 damage due to armor? I don't think that's right.
 

oscar

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I don't see how the "no miss" system (fucking sucks btw) has anything to do with the "left wing morons".

Josh Sawyer is a mangina who supported that Tropes vs Women faggotry. So you'll be sure to see lots of strong, in-every-aspect-physically-equal women proving they're every bit as tough as the boys and gender role-reversals!!!
 

Hormalakh

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Seriously....if you guys don't understand the complete irrelevance of GAME MECHANICS DESIGN with POLITICAL IDEOLOGY....oh wait this is the codex. Sorry I forgot we allow GD into our RPG.
 

J_C

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In a 50% damage system, you will always be at LEAST half as effective as the most powerful character. This means that the weakest melee/ranged character in Project Eternity will be 10 times more effective than the weakest character in the IE games.

Ah, reading comprehension, where did it go.

So, what is actually happening in PE so far is: If a weak character usually do 3-8 damage, he will always do at least 1 on misses (3/2). THEN you calculate things like armors (magical, natural, physical), which means it will probably be 0.

A 'Strong' character however would do 15-20, so 7 on misses (15/2), and then you factor the enemies' armor.

And obviously, all of this doesn't take into account things like special feats and active abilities to dimnish damages from misses, or to increase damage on enemies, and so on.
I hope you are right. But I still doubtfull.
 
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Codexers are stupidz! lol Why they no bow to geniusz that is Josh "I know better" Sawyer ??! Lol they suckz...


Codexers are stupidz because they are predictable little kids with no clue or reasoning beyond "itz diffrent!1!!1!!" which they use to respond to predictable rage buttons

A 'Strong' character however would do 15-20, so 7 on misses (15/2), and then you factor the enemies' armor.

Ah, good catch - I completely forgot about the DT type armor! With DT type, half damage dealt will reduce damage received by much more than half, so the misses actually *are* more significant, particularly vs armored targets.

Truly, Josh Sawyer is more prescient than any of us could have guessed. A worthy companion of MCA for sure.
 

Arkeus

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Where did you get that they will do 0 damage due to armor? I don't think that's right.
Josh made sure to point out that there is Armor (determined by Armor, and probably Toughness and magical enhancements), and then there is the AC-equivalent (Determined by things like dex and Shields).

Armor is the whole DT thing, which means that for every hit you then take off a good part of those hits.

No, if there is a problem, it's that a Full-on Dex warrior cannot survive without either some kind of magical DT, or some kind of ability that negates some damages from misses (let's say, an ability that puts misses damage to 1/4, then to 1/8, then to null).
 

Infinitron

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Josh Sawyer said:
Currently, missed attacks do half minimum damage, which is then applied to armor. You can still take Stamina and Health damage from a missed attack, but it is typically going to be very low. The hypothetical 100 scrubs vs. dragons will still prob. die.
 

Lord Andre

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So, if it changes nothing - as he claims - then why the fuck implement it ? It must be good for something if it's worth degrading the organic feel of the world yet again. Magical stash that makes no sense was not enough ?
 

Infinitron

I post news
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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/411073454213716744

Kevin Saunders said:
Hi Josh! Which of the games you've worked on -- completed or not -- do you feel you learned the most from? How do you feel Project Eternity is benefiting from that experience?


Josh Sawyer said:
I think I've learned a lot from every project I've been on, but I guess F:NV was the most illuminating. It had the longest development cycle of any game I've shipped and, by far, sold the most units on the most platforms. I think that wider-than-usual net helped show how much people "got" or didn't get certain types of gameplay mechanics, narrative structures, etc.

I also had more freedom to mess with the rules on F:NV than I did on any of the D&D games I contributed to, and seeing how people responded to the minor and major shifts between F3 and F:NV was very informative.

I think the biggest thing I took away, more definitively than ever, is that how things actually work matters more than how people react to the idea of how they will work. I.e., there are really two levels of response to something in the game: the idea of what it is (often interpreted outside of the game) and the reality of what it is. The idea is often more upsetting or disconcerting to people than the reality. But the bottom line is that the reality actually has to be enjoyable in the context of the game, regardless of where the idea started or what the intent was.

When we eliminated Big Guns and spread the weapons around to other skills, there was a lot of head-shaking. After the game came out, not many people complained about or or really even seemed to care. That isn't to say that NO ONE cared -- some people cared, and still care, a lot about it. But the end result didn't generate a lot of negativity and most people responded positively to it or just didn't care.

On the other hand, the way the map was illustrated was logical and map-like but confused people because they thought it was literally at the same scale as the F3 map. In F3, the map border *is* the border of the world. In F:NV, the map border is the extreme outer extent that encapsulates the irregular border of the world. Essentially it was like forcing Colorado and Nevada to be fit into an identical square frame map that's 10" by 10". Nevada is larger than Colorado in reality, but it is always going to take up less space if pushed to the edges of a 10" by 10" map because Colorado has a rectilinear shape and Nevada doesn't. Long story short: it makes sense, but it confused a huge number of people who thought that we were wasting portions of the map. We addressed this in Honest Hearts by using an irregular border instead of a square one.

And speaking of Honest Hearts, I also learned that between the free-wheeling nature of F:NV's content implementation and the strict, low-risk implementation of Honest Hearts content, OEI content usually needs to fall somewhere in-between. A quest that is completely cut-and-dry bog-standard will usually come across that way even if it takes place in a new setting. A quest that is a tangled skein of nightmare scripting will probably ship as a broken mess of half-fulfilled dreams. So when it comes to working with designers, it's good to start with a really solid, stable core of gameplay but leave time for (and encourage) more risky secondary elements after the core has been developed.

Having content that's just "in" and works isn't enough -- both for designers and for people who are playing an Obsidian RPG. People enjoy weird and wacky stuff in quests; it just has to work properly. Our concepting, design, and review processes need to account for the basics but also ensure there's time for the cool and unusual stuff.
 

Zakhad

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Josh Sawyer said:
Currently, missed attacks do half minimum damage, which is then applied to armor. You can still take Stamina and Health damage from a missed attack, but it is typically going to be very low. The hypothetical 100 scrubs vs. dragons will still prob. die.


ITT: The Codex works itself up into a frothing rage over what turns out to be a complete straw-man non-issue, replete with personal attacks on the game designer, who they complain won't come and talk to them so that they may grace him with their random sexist butthurt vitriol wisdom.

What exciting and not-at-all-retarded events await on the codex tomorrow? Who can say?

Seriously, It's like a twilight zone of retardation here, sometimes. As though when the neckbeard gets too big it drains all the blood from the brain.
 

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