Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[tuluse]

I think it's important to genuinely capture the feeling of the games we're referencing back to, but that doesn't mean we should ape all of their mechanics directly.

I think to hit mechanics were pretty central to DnD and thus IE games by extension.

Sometimes I'll mention something I don't think is particularly controversial (something that was in the IE games that I'd like to continue emulating) and it winds up generating a lot of antipathy.

Which ones are you thinking of in particular? Not calling you out, I'm genuinely interested.

Combat and non-combat skills being separate. In 2nd Ed. AD&D, this is just how it worked. In the IE games (other than IWD2), thieves and bards got percentile skill points, everyone got weapon proficiencies, and that was pretty much it. In IWD2, you got skill points and feats separately. There was overlap in combat/non-combat utility with feats and spells, but otherwise your combat and non-combat ability advanced through different mechanics. A lot of people really reacted negatively to the idea of these two things being purchased with separate currencies and it surprised me.

I found this odd too. It's only marginally different from 3E and people got really mad about it.

 

[Roguey]

I think to hit mechanics were pretty central to DnD and thus IE games by extension.

Technically he didn't remove the attack roll, he just upgraded the miss to a glance.

 

[Hormalakh]

Come now Roguey admit it. even you weren't happy with what he was doing with the to-hit. It's ok. He's human. He can make mistakes. You can still love him.

 

[Roguey]

I'm just sayin' "to-hit mechanics" were still central to P:E. Also thanks to this discussion I learned that unlike all those shitty P&P and math-lazy cRPGs, fractional damage is in. 1 stamina damage will deal a fraction of health damage that adds up and that's neat (to me).

 

[Grunker]

I don't see why you'd want them to mimic IE mechanics too closely. Of course it might be that they indeed are so bad at their occupation that they cannot improve upon a proven formula, but if that's the case, would they be competent of doing a mostly 1:1 copy of BG2 either?

Just taking something and religiously copying it won't automatically make it easier to make the design good. You need some understanding beyond a cargo cult to make a good sequel to something, regardless of how exactly faithful you plan it to be.

BG2 is on mine, and many other Codexers' (see RPGCodex Top10), top10 lists. Why exactly would we bet on some random dude with NWN2 as his prime achievement to outdo one of our favourite games? Why wouldn't we want a mostly 1:1 copy of one of our favourite games? Why wouldn't we want them to just polish a proven formular?

Some of the best sequals have been made with the vision of not fixing shit that wasn't broken.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm just sayin' "to-hit mechanics" were still central to P:E. Also thanks to this discussion I learned that unlike all those shitty P&P and math-lazy cRPGs, fractional damage is in. 1 stamina damage will deal a fraction of health damage that adds up and that's neat (to me).

Post source

 

[Jasede]

I want you to remember that NWN 2 was a terrible, terrible mess when Sawyer came to work on it. As much as I despise its interface and combat it needs to be pointed out that at the point in production that Josh started working on it it was much too late for any sweeping changes as they were busy doing damage control.

 

[Roguey]

Infinitron http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/page__st__40#entry1296132

Many misses would likely be reduced to fractional Stamina damage and, by association, even smaller Health damage (we do track the fractions). Currently, our DT system has the same minimum 20% system as F:NV (excepting Crushing weapons, which currently do minimum 40%). Decent armor would turn that 3 Damage into 0.6 Stamina damage and 0.15 Health damage. Ten "missed" blows would result in 6 points of Stamina damage and 1.5 points of Health damage.

 

[Arkeus]

Aahahahah, that is awesome.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah I remember reading about fractions and that made me happy.

 

[oscar]

So a guy shoots an arrow at you that easily misses and you somehow lose a little bit of health?

 

[Hormalakh]

If the arrow completely misses you don't lose any health. If the arrow "grazes" you on the cheek, you lose a fraction of health.

 

[Johannes]

I don't see why you'd want them to mimic IE mechanics too closely. Of course it might be that they indeed are so bad at their occupation that they cannot improve upon a proven formula, but if that's the case, would they be competent of doing a mostly 1:1 copy of BG2 either?

Just taking something and religiously copying it won't automatically make it easier to make the design good. You need some understanding beyond a cargo cult to make a good sequel to something, regardless of how exactly faithful you plan it to be.

BG2 is on mine, and many other Codexers' (see RPGCodex Top10), top10 lists. Why exactly would we bet on some random dude with NWN2 as his prime achievement to outdo one of our favourite games? Why wouldn't we want a mostly 1:1 copy of one of our favourite games? Why wouldn't we want them to just polish a proven formular?

Some of the best sequals have been made with the vision of not fixing shit that wasn't broken.

If he doesn't get (or agree with you) as to what made the original so good, why would you trust him to even make a copy of it?

 

[GordonHalfman]

In the space of all possible game designs I suppose you could find a bit that manages to:

a) Coddle the people to dumb to use buffing spells in a DnD game
b) Cater to gamist extremists who hate RPGs and everything they stand for
c) Capture the essential feel of the IE games

But Obsidian wouldn't be anyone's first choice to achieve such a miracle, especially with a small team and an 18 month development time. I would have really liked to play a new mid level campaign with a ruleset based on BG2 + SCS2 + SR + RR. I suppose some would have felt that to be unambitious but I don't see anything wrong with sticking to an old formula when the whole project is only possible because people really liked that stuff. Not that I would accuse them of dishonesty, it was pretty obvious from the very first comments that we weren't going to get anything of the kind.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

BG2 is on mine, and many other Codexers' (see RPGCodex Top10), top10 lists. Why exactly would we bet on some random dude with NWN2 as his prime achievement to outdo one of our favourite games?

How is NWN2 even remotly his *prime achievement*.

He wasn't even responsible for any of the design on the game, only came in during the last year to try to finish things up. What on all accounts (at least from those we have info from like Annie) was an even bigger mess.

IWD2 and F:NV are Sawyer's Achievements.

 

[Infinitron]

I found this odd too. It's only marginally different from 3E and people got really mad about it.

Those people were Fallout fans who were thinking about Fallout's skill usage model. 3E wasn't on their mental radar.

 

[oscar]

The D&D format and ruleset is there precisely so you don't have to reinvent the wheel every damn time you want an RPG, allowing you to focus on crafting a cool adventure.

If the arrow completely misses you don't lose any health. If the arrow "grazes" you on the cheek, you lose a fraction of health.

So that shitty goblin archer still manages to score hits the overwhelming majority of the time, even if they only graze your ankle or cut a little bit of your ear (for a fraction of an HP point in-game)? It's a stupid and unnecessary concept. A 'glancing' blow that hits but doesn't have much effect is already reflected in present mechanics by a low roll or the defender's defence being high enough that the attack does bugger all damage.

To his credit he did get rid of it, but it's sort of worrying that at this stage they're still playing around and still this fickle about what game mechanics are going to be in. Who knows what he might decide to throw in or toss out on a whim? This combined with his democratic, listening to the fans stuff could also exacerbate the problem (thankfully most of the fans of this seem to be pretty on the ball with Biodrones wanting a new Dragon Age in the minority).

 

[Darth Roxor]

IWD2 and F:NV are Sawyer's Achievements.

Wow, truly remarkable

 

[Grunker]

IWD2 and F:NV are Sawyer's Achievements.

Wow, truly remarkable

A shitty implementation of 3rd edition and a game with barely an RPG system. I actually used NWN2 as the prime example because its implementation of D&D is quite good. But if you want to use a worse example as defense of Sawyer, I'm not going to stop you.

 

[Infinitron]

PnPfags gonna PnPfag.

 

[Infinitron]

And you. You know most of the criticism posted here has LITTLE IF ANY to do with pNp. Quite the contrary in fact.

No, but Grunker's does.

pays homage

Learn 2 dictionary

 

[Captain Shrek]

And you. You know most of the criticism posted here has LITTLE IF ANY to do with pNp. Quite the contrary in fact.

No, but Grunker's does.

pays homage

Learn 2 dictionary

Don't. Please. Don't make me read between the lines.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!

 

[Infinitron]

Literal-minded, much? What does that even mean, "bring those games back"? They're already back. They're for sale on GOG.com.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, Shrek. Don't you go using the fact that they mention the IE-games all over the Kickstarter as a sign that they're promoting PE as a return to the IE-form. Obviously there was no reason they constantly mentioned those games and showed pics of them.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Literal-minded, much? What does that even mean, "bring those games back"? They're already back. They're for sale on GOG.com.

Infinitron. I am not going to argue this. This is literally assumed callousness towards something you know to be true and have argued in the past about. I just can't be bothered to dig up posts and go into details. I would rather enjoy discussions on the obvious fallacies of Sawyer's current plans than on literary analysis of Kickstarter pages.