Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[suejak]

Fixed?

No. It's not fixed. I don't believe Tuluse was talking about using old 3d tech to prerender. He's saying that using rendering technology (new or old) and pre-rendering graphics will always give you better visual quality and he's right.

He was obviously saying that the old IE prerenders look better than anything modern GPUs can produce in real-time.

 

[Hormalakh]

He was obviously saying that the old IE prerenders look better than anything modern GPUs can produce in real-time.

It'll be a long time until modern GPUs can produce such great images in real-time. A long long time... We'd probably need a revolutionary new method of rendering.

 

[Turisas]

We'd probably need a revolutionary new method of rendering.

Yeah, like PC being the lead platform.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah, like PC being the lead platform.

That's a start. But I'm talking about something like Euclideon, except you know, like real. Not some fake engine that is a lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4

E: I'm slightly exaggerating of course. But we haven't yet reached old pre-renders.

 

[sea]

I would like to use this thread to say that I am fucking tired of RPGs (and games in general) where your primary source of money is by finding and selling equipment. Finding treasure would be much more satisfying. Chests of gold guarded by bandidts. Fist sized gems stolen from the eyes of a demonic statue. Golden regalia from the tomb of the sorcerer-king. Way cooler treasure than the +3 sword you sell because you already have a +4.

It would be even cooler if you have to actively search out treasure rather than primarily coming across it while completing other quests.

Yep. What I would like, however, is to maybe see crafting, speech, mercantile and other non-combat skills involved.

In real life you don't go and dump a bunch of swords on someone's front desk and get money. What matters are information, trade goods and skilled trades. To that end I think you should be able to sell the locations of dungeons and other valuable landmarks on the map to various powers in the game world (affecting faction reputation), find sources of valuable resources (spices, grapes, pelts, etc.) and negotiate contracts with merchant companies, and use your own crafting skills to smelt down useless equipment into stuff people actually want (iron ingots, etc.).

Yeah, the idea is more or less based on what they already did in Storm of Zehir, but that game economy was ruined by all the high-level equipment you could find and sell, and the massive amounts of free money you got. Cut out the gold-finding, loot-selling element and you have a far more balanced and more realistic economy.

That's a start. But I'm talking about something like Euclideon, except you know, like real. Not some fake engine that is a lie.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=00gAbgBu8R4

E: I'm slightly exaggerating of course. But we haven't yet reached old pre-renders.

That "Unlimited Detail" stuff is snake oil. The company was pitching the idea around for years. Turns out that their tech is not as impressive as their videos make it look. They can only have a very small number of objects on screen at once (which is why their scenes all have the same things repeating over and over and over), the lighting is completely static and cannot change in real-time, there is no way they can animate anything using their system without massive performance drops (because you suddenly have millions of blades of grass that have to have individual animations), not to mention how game logic, physics, etc. would interact. Actual good-looking moving characters are impossible from what I understand.

Nobody has given them significant funding yet, and why do you think that is? The tech is pointless both for offline rendering (we can already do it) and for games (no interactivity). Don't you think if this was a "revolutionary" new form of doing computer graphics, they would have been bought up in an instant if it actually worked?

I remember seeing a forum thread where other graphics programmers ripped into them, but Notch's article here should give you an idea of the complaints: http://notch.tumblr.com/post/8386977075/its-a-scam

 

[Kem0sabe]

Developing an RPG zone/map/area with 2D pre-rendered backgrounds is more or less time consuming than doing a quality 3D equivalent (not in terms of visual fidelity but of scale and complexity of the scenery)?

I always imagined the artistic work would be more time consuming with pre-rendered art, but depending on toolsets i imagine building a level in 3D and modeling every asset is not that easy or fast.

If someone has any personal experience on this i would appreciate it if they shared it.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yep the Euclideon stuff is basically a big lie. I said as much in my previous post.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Todays GPU's could do all that shit in realtime, and with deferred renderers, ambient occlusion and global illumination tech that would make the 1990's game artist shit his pants with envy.

But its making modern day artists yawn with indifference.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Todays GPU's could do all that shit in realtime, and with deferred renderers, ambient occlusion and global illumination tech that would make the 1990's game artist shit his pants with envy.

But its making modern day artists yawn with indifference.

It's all about the money.

 

[sea]

Speaking of: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...eternity-get-rid-of-adventurer-based-economy/

 

[Captain Shrek]

Todays GPU's could do all that shit in realtime, and with deferred renderers, ambient occlusion and global illumination tech that would make the 1990's game artist shit his pants with envy.

But its making modern day artists yawn with indifference.

It's all about the money.

 

[imweasel]

Check this shit out, Sawyer seems to love Skyrim. His Steam account is plastered full of Skyshit pics...

And this guy is the lead designer of PE.... Fucking scary shit.

--
Btw, my first post! After lurking for so long I have decided to join ranks of true gamers. =D

 

[Infinitron]

imweasel

You'd be surprised how many HARDCORE Codexers' Steam accounts match that description.

Hormalakh

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/413100989776686873

 

[tuluse]

Pretty different design for club compared to most games.

 

[Infinitron]

Pretty different design for club compared to most games.

I think it's more like the TF2 scout's BONK! club, not a huge barbarian type thing.

 

[potatojohn]

So what's up with PE? Any exciting stuff? Any new screenshots? Don't make go through 500 pages bros.

 

[tuluse]

So what's up with PE? Any exciting stuff? Any new screenshots? Don't make go through 500 pages bros.

Josh is doing game design and it's making everyone mad.

No new art.

 

[imweasel]

imweasel

You'd be surprised how many HARDCORE Codexers' Steam accounts match that description.

I sure am.

 

[Kirtai]

Pretty different design for club compared to most games.

I think it's more like the TF2 scout's BONK! club, not a huge barbarian type thing.

Maybe like a truncheon.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/413411465802828654

How are you considering handling in game economy with the "stash" system (which has unlimited space??) so that the player doesn't become a billionaire early on and that there is some actual value for currency and stuff to spend it on with a purpose.

Sale prices have to reflect the fact that the player has unlimited inventory space. In most games, we have to balance around the hope/belief that most players aren't patient -- because really, nothing actually prevents the player from yanking everything out of a dungeon and marching it down to a shop other than their own impatience. That's not a great way to balance things because the gulf of value between the impatient and the patient is pretty large.

 

[potatojohn]

Or you know you could just have items degrade and then have most enemies drop items that are too broken for any shop to buy.

This professional game design tip is available to you - YES YOU! for only $599! CALL NOW and receive a free copy of a pamphlet on how to avoid filling your dungeons with trash mobs.

 

[Dorateen]

It always gets abstracted away as "initiative rolls" or something similarly weaksauce.

Hey!

What's wrong with abstraction and initiative rolls?

 

[Infinitron]

Or you know you could just have items degrade and then have most enemies drop items that are too broken for any shop to buy.

This professional game design tip is available to you - YES YOU! for only $599! CALL NOW and receive a free copy of a pamphlet on how to avoid filling your dungeons with trash mobs.

Who says he's talking only about items dropped by enemies? There are other sources of loot in a dungeon.

What's wrong with abstraction and initiative rolls?

Nothing, but a CRPG can do something stronger with the concept of a character's speed.

 

[Dorateen]

I would just as soon have character speed be factored into an initiative check. So the speedy halfling in light armor will still likely act first, but at least give the heavily loaded down dwarf a chance to make an improbable roll and sneak in an attack sometimes. Introduces a degree of unpredictability to combat.

 

[Rake]

Sawyer on exploration
I think "the truth is somewhere in the middle" answers can be a bit hokey but, in fact, the truth is somewhere in the middle -- between BG1 and BG2, that is. BG1 had a lot of empty space and BG2 packed in the content like a can of sardines. We want exploration areas to feel like you're not tripping over quests and monsters every five feet, but there should be a rewarding amount of good content to find, even in "wilderness" areas.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/62886-playing-baldurs-gate-again-most-of-it-feels-a-bit-empty/
---
On pause:
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63123-crazy-idea-real-timeslow-mo/
In our current build, we already allow the game to either be paused or dramatically slowed. A while back, a number of people requested the "slo-mo" option because (among other reasons) some are micromanagers who wind up in a constant pause-start-pause-start-pause pattern every few seconds. The slo-mo toggle required virtually no effort on our end and seems to play reasonably well so far.

 

[DraQ]

Sale prices have to reflect the fact that the player has unlimited inventory space. In most games, we have to balance around the hope/belief that most players aren't patient -- because really, nothing actually prevents the player from yanking everything out of a dungeon and marching it down to a shop other than their own impatience. That's not a great way to balance things because the gulf of value between the impatient and the patient is pretty large.

How about making stuff not stay put for long after you leave location? How about introducing constant funds sink, like consumables, that simply makes just travelling back and forth cost you more than you get from selling rusty crap in bulk? How about making items less resaleable, both due to degradation (as was already mentioned) and lack of demand?

Designers, Y U SO DUMB?

Pretty different design for club compared to most games.

Morrowind's clubs were much faster but weaker than heavier maces.