Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Let's look at the facts. We have a BIG game (two cities, a 15 level dungeon and god knows what else) in development here. They've got a year and a half, maybe slightly more, to make it.

So what's the biggest risk factor here? Answer: Lack of polish due to time constraints. Bad or broken AI, buggy unfinished areas and quests, unbalanced encounters, or trash mobs instead of good encounters because there was no time to create and test anything better.

That's what I'm worrying about in this game. Good mechanics and rules squandered by bad content.

 

[Captain Shrek]

That's what I'm worrying about in this game. Good mechanics and rules squandered by bad content.

Trash mobs is mechanics and not content.

Bugs, I hope they will fix with patches.

I am rather sure that it will be a game in spirit like Arcanum; great content and outrageous combat. In spirit, because actually Arcanum's mechanics were in fact exemplary, it was the implementation that was shit. Here I have many reservations about the mechanics as extensively discussed.

I am not worried about the content: Obsidian has ALWAYS delivered on it; good quests, NPCs, places and stories.

 

[Infinitron]

Trash mobs is mechanics and not content.

No.

 

[bminorkey]

That making a game that works with someone's desires instead of against them isn't making a good game? That's odd considering it's the job of a game designer to create something that people enjoy.

What I'm taking from the discussion re: pages 499-501 is that people don't know what they want, and a truly great game shoves itself up your arse until you learn to love it.









I concur.

 

[Captain Shrek]

Trash mobs is mechanics and not content.

No.

Alright.

Claim: Trash mobs are encounter design mechanics.

 

[Lord Andre]

Let's look at the facts. We have a BIG game (two cities, a 15 level dungeon and god knows what else) in development here. They've got a year and a half, maybe slightly more, to make it.

So what's the biggest risk factor here? Answer: Lack of polish due to time constraints. Bad or broken AI, buggy unfinished areas and quests, unbalanced encounters, or trash mobs instead of good encounters because there was no time to create and test anything better.

That's what I'm worrying about in this game. Good mechanics and rules squandered by bad content.

Well there you go, that explains it. You trust Sawyer but not Obsidian. We (the bad guys in this thread) trust Obsidian but not Sawyer.

 

[Infinitron]

Well there you go, that explains it. You trust Sawyer but not Obsidian. We (the bad guys in this thread) trust Obsidian but not Sawyer.

Heh, it's not that simple. Sawyer is lead designer so he has some authority over content creation, too.

In fact, his obsession with designing the ULTIMATE GAMIST mechanics might cause him to neglect content creation. That's something worth worrying about.

 

[Lancehead]

Well there you go, that explains it. You trust Sawyer but not Obsidian. We (the bad guys in this thread) trust Obsidian but not Sawyer.

Last I know Sawyer is a part of Obsidian.

 

[Blaine]

What I'm taking from the discussion re: pages 499-501 is that people don't know what they want, and a truly great game shoves itself up your arse until you learn to love it.

Exactly right. Some guy compared playing Wizardry 8 to having sex while getting kicked in the balls, and in my view that's spot on.

I'd compare it to parents forcing their children to try strange new foods. The child believes he or she only likes junk food, and probably hates eating vegetables and exotic dishes... but they eventually grow up to have a cultured palate. If the parents indulge the child's shitty immature palate for their entire childhood, on the other hand, they grow up to be an average American.

 

[Lord Andre]

Well there you go, that explains it. You trust Sawyer but not Obsidian. We (the bad guys in this thread) trust Obsidian but not Sawyer.

Heh, it's not that simple. Sawyer is lead designer so he has some authority over content creation, too.

In fact, his obsession with mechanics might cause him to neglect content creation. That's something worth worrying about.

You know that whenever he announces good stuff like the speed implementation, we (the bad guys) did not complain, quite the opposite.

So who is more objective, someone that says "This I like, but that I don't like." or someone who defends all of Sawyer's decisions to death ?

 

[Blaine]

Someone needs to Photoshop an image of Roguey, Infinitron and Josh Sawyer having a threesome. I'm too lazy at the moment.

 

[Captain Shrek]

You know that whenever he announces good stuff like the speed implementation, we (the bad guys) did not complain, quite the opposite.
So who is more objective, someone that says "This I like, but that I don't like." or someone who defends all of Sawyer's decisions to death ?

err...

Count me out. I was so disgusted that I could not complain.

 

[Infinitron]

Well there you go, that explains it. You trust Sawyer but not Obsidian. We (the bad guys in this thread) trust Obsidian but not Sawyer.

Heh, it's not that simple. Sawyer is lead designer so he has some authority over content creation, too.

In fact, his obsession with mechanics might cause him to neglect content creation. That's something worth worrying about.

You know that whenever he announces good stuff like the speed implementation, we (the bad guys) did not complain, quite the opposite.

So who is more objective, someone that says "This I like, but that I don't like." or someone who defends all of Sawyer's decisions to death ?

Uh, okay?

Not sure how that's relevant to what I posted. I just said Sawyer will be to blame if the game ends up having bad content.

 

[Lord Andre]

You know that whenever he announces good stuff like the speed implementation, we (the bad guys) did not complain, quite the opposite.
So who is more objective, someone that says "This I like, but that I don't like." or someone who defends all of Sawyer's decisions to death ?

err...

Count me out. I was so disgusted that I could not complain.

What did you hate about it ?

 

[Lord Andre]

Uh, okay?
Not sure how that's relevant to what I posted. I just said Sawyer will be to blame if the game ends up having bad content.

I was addressing the allegations that the "Anti-Josh" posters in this thread are too stupid to understand that they don't have enough information to extrapolate an opinion so they should just shut up because they're cunts that hate for no reason.

 

[suejak]

That making a game that works with someone's desires instead of against them isn't making a good game? That's odd considering it's the job of a game designer to create something that people enjoy.

What I'm taking from the discussion re: pages 499-501 is that people don't know what they want, and a truly great game shoves itself up your arse until you learn to love it.









I concur.

Isn't the logical course of action for those of this mindset to, like, shut the fuck up?

You may think Sawyer's inventory is lame, outrageous, and downright offensive, but once the game's out and he's shoving his stash up the top of your pack, you'll learn to love it.

 

[Infinitron]

I was addressing the allegations that the "Anti-Josh" posters in this thread are too stupid to understand that they don't have enough information to extrapolate an opinion so they should just shut up because they're cunts that hate for no reason.

No, nobody should shut up. We've already possibly managed to change Josh's mind about a few things, after all. Doesn't mean people aren't taking things out of proportion, though.

 

[bminorkey]

That making a game that works with someone's desires instead of against them isn't making a good game? That's odd considering it's the job of a game designer to create something that people enjoy.

What I'm taking from the discussion re: pages 499-501 is that people don't know what they want, and a truly great game shoves itself up your arse until you learn to love it.









I concur.

Isn't the logical course of action for those of this mindset to, like, shut the fuck up?

You may think Sawyer's inventory is lame, outrageous, and downright offensive, but once the game's out and he's shoving his stash up the top of your pack, you'll learn to love it.

This is actually more-or-less what I've been saying since a few hundred pages ago. The only premature feedback I believe in is the kind that's detached and nonjudgemental.

I mean maybe you won't like it in the end, but that just means you can sue for rape.

 

[Raapys]

I don't know where all the trust for Sawyer is coming from though, be that for content creation or game mechanics. Don't get me wrong, he seems like a decent guy and I like his focus on detail, but I mean, he's done what? IWD2 and NWN2? F:NW and Alpha Protocol? IWD2 was poorer, content-wise, than IWD1 where he wasn't lead, and the mechanics were just D&D. NWN2 wasn't exactly a staggering achievement, and again it was D&D. F:NW was an improvement over FO3, but meh...AP? Hah.

Obsidian's best project, MotB, was done by Saunders( now at inExile ) and Ziets.

 

[Infinitron]

I don't know where all the trust for Sawyer is coming from though, be that for content creation or game mechanics. Don't get me wrong, he seems like a decent guy and I like his focus on detail, but I mean, he's done what? IWD2 and NWN2? F:NW and Alpha Protocol? IWD2 was poorer, content-wise, than IWD1 where he wasn't lead, and the mechanics were just D&D. NWN2 wasn't exactly a staggering achievement, and again it was D&D. F:NW was an improvement over FO3, but meh...AP? Hah.

Obsidian's best project, MotB, was done by Saunders( now at inExile ) and Ziets.

He didn't have any major role in AP. That's Mitsoda's and Avellone's baby.

 

[Roguey]

Roguey, the essence of your argument is the very same slippery slope that led to the decline.

Slippery slope is a fallacy. Furthermore he is not making these changes for a "wider" audience:

I don't know what sort of person you're picturing in your head, but from comments that a lot of people make, I get the feeling you see a moron, a person who doesn't really like games, who isn't enthusiastic about them in the same way that you are. In some cases, this is true. But I've seen hundreds of volunteer and professional testers come and go. Most of them are actually pretty intelligent. They like or love games. They like or love RPGs and have played a bunch of them. They're still not terrific at them. They miss a bunch of things and they make a bunch of mistakes.
...
But again, just to be clear, a lot of actual players actually need these things. I'm not saying this because players come up to me and say, "Josh, I need this." I'm saying this because I'll talk to a tester (volunteer or pro) with a ton of RPG experience and later watch him or her play remotely. Or I'll pop open a Let's Play on YouTube from an enthusiastic player and watch how things turn out. Sometimes they ace it, sometimes they don't. Either way, what I see on that monitor doesn't lie.

Experienced video game play testers and let's play enthusiasts aren't the dreaded casuals stealin' your genre.

Not sure how that's relevant to what I posted. I just said Sawyer will be to blame if the game ends up having bad content.

I think the people responsible for creating content are to blame for bad content.

 

[Grunker]

I don't know where all the trust for Sawyer is coming from though, be that for content creation or game mechanics. Don't get me wrong, he seems like a decent guy and I like his focus on detail, but I mean, he's done what?

Don't muck up the issue! Experience is worthless! Sawyer says he will make the best game system ever, so of course he will!

 

[Roguey]

New Vegas with JSawyer is all the proof I needed. And IWD was a better D&D adaptation than BG.

when BG first came out i took xan instead of dynaheir for a while because i was going to do that siren area and i figured xan's elven + enchanter bonuses vs. sleep and charm would make it a walk in the park. lol joke's on me none of the specialist save bonuses or racial bonuses outside of ability score mods were implemented. owned.

jokes on you, you played that and said "Wow, this is a bad game with a lot of features which actually do nothing, I want to make games just like it for the rest of my career"

actually i said, "i would have implemented all of the racial and specialist bonuses!!!" and then ~ 2 yrs later i worked on icewind dale and did.

 

[Lancehead]

I like NV+JSawyer, but he didn't make the system from ground up. Eternity is his first attempt at creating a new system.

 

[Grunker]

New Vegas with JSawyer is all the proof I needed.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

New Vegas as proof of systems design, hahahahaha

And IWD was a better D&D adaptation than BG.

They were two implementations of two very different systems. BG was more faithful but IWD2 gets a pass since 3.5 is much more complex. However the implementation was overall very mediocre compared to later games. A pity NWN2 was so shitty in all mechanical departments not related to its system, the system was pretty much implemented flawlessly. But then again you always tell me Sawyer only did damage control on NWN2 so I guess that was no fault of his, eh?