Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[suejak]

Raapys Blaine Huh? There is no way they could have gotten an original-IP 2D isometric RTwP RPG through a publisher. Plus there's the narrative side -- they've mentioned that their narrative is too "mature" for publishers.

Trying to make a fun game isn't selling out. JE Sawyer is experimenting with new ideas. Given how trivial most of this shit is, I don't see a point in shitting bricks over it.

Well, Josh is building the game he wants to play, according to his own philosophy, and he doesn't give a shit what the Codex Committe of Crying says about it. Satisfied?

This is also wrong. Josh is building a game with new ideas that is attempting to be fun.

 

[Lancehead]

I also think that Obsidian could have emphasized at some point that another primary purpose of this project was to finally give Josh Sawyer a chance to make his dream game, a chance that has been repeatedly denied to him over the years, with cancelled project after cancelled project. But of course, that wouldn't mean much to the vast majority of the audience.

I imagine Sawyer's dream game would be some sort of historical RPG, not Eternity.

 

[Infinitron]

I also think that Obsidian could have emphasized at some point that another primary purpose of this project was to finally give Josh Sawyer a chance to make his dream game, a chance that has been repeatedly denied to him over the years, with cancelled project after cancelled project. But of course, that wouldn't mean much to the vast majority of the audience.

I imagine Sawyer's dream game would be some sort of historical RPG, not Eternity.

True. Amended my post.

 

[Raapys]

When the only things you hear about a project are how it will differ from your expectations, the perception that the project as a whole will be nothing like what you expected is hard to avoid. It's hard to see the forest for the trees.

I agree that Josh could do more to show how this game WILL be like the IE games. Which I'm confident it will be.

I also think that Obsidian could have emphasized at some point that another primary purpose of this project was to finally give Josh Sawyer a chance to make his dream game, a chance that has been repeatedly denied to him over the years, with cancelled project after cancelled project. But of course, that wouldn't mean much to the vast majority of the audience.

But there's nothing, is there? I mean, real-time with pause and isometric'ish is pretty much the only things that make it sound like the IE games. But the "small" things, those that actually made the games what they were, those all appear to be different in either a big or a subtle way. Thus what I say about this sounding more like DragonAge than any of the old games.

Trying to make a fun game isn't selling out. JE Sawyer is experimenting with new ideas. Given how trivial most of this shit is, I don't see a point in shitting bricks over it.

The IE games were fun. I thought so.

As for experimenting. Fine. But then don't lie about it. The kickstarter should have said what it was going to be. OHI GUYS, SAWYER WANTS TO TRY OUT LOTZ OF NEW STUFF AND HE WOULD LIEK U GUIZE TO PAI FOR IT!11 I paid for a IE game. That's what I expected to get. He can 'experiment' for someone else's cash.

 

[Infinitron]

But there's nothing, is there? I mean, real-time with pause and isometric'ish is pretty much the only things that make it sound like the IE games. But the "small" things, those that actually made the games what they were, those all appear to be different in either a big or a subtle way. Thus what I say about this sounding more like DragonAge than any of the old games.

Well, we're going back to an argument from earlier in this thread. It seems that for some people, the "small things" of the D&D mechanics were what made the IE games.

I think that's wrong. The IE games were characterized primarily by their six party member, micro-managed tactical combat with interesting and varied encounter design, 2D isometric graphics without tiles, and text-heavy story, setting and dialogue. You can change around the details of the mechanics and still preserve that.

Which is, by the way, precisely what a certain game called Planescape Torment did to Baldur's Gate. Stat improvements on level-up, resurrection abilities and health regen below Con 19 in AD&D?

 

[suejak]

It's so weird to me that people think the inventory system is an integral part of the IE experience.

Pretty sure you paid for a game "in the spirit" of the IE games. Not straight-up plagiarism.

 

[Raapys]

But there's nothing, is there? I mean, real-time with pause and isometric'ish is pretty much the only things that make it sound like the IE games. But the "small" things, those that actually made the games what they were, those all appear to be different in either a big or a subtle way. Thus what I say about this sounding more like DragonAge than any of the old games.

Well, we're going back to an argument from earlier in this thread. It seems that for some people, the "small things" of the D&D mechanics were what made the IE games.

I think that's wrong. The IE games were characterized primarily by their six party member, micro-managed tactical combat with interesting and varied encounter design, 2D isometric appearance and text-heavy story and setting. You can change around the details of the mechanics and still preserve that.

Which is, by the way, precisely what a certain game called Planescape Torment did to Baldur's Gate. Stat improvements on level-up, resurrection abilities and health regen below Con 19 in AD&D?

But Planescape was never actually a good game, was it? Don't get me wrong, I loved it. But certainly not for the gameplay. Gameplay-wise, Planescape was below average, though it did have some cool magic and items. Baldur's Gate 2, on the other hand, is one of the best games I've played. Dragon Age, another game that is "in the spirit of the IE games", doesn't even begin to come close. Thus my point, that to me at least, yes, it's the small things that matter. The small things alone can take a game from poor to excellent. Or the other way around, as it were with DA.

 

[Infinitron]

But Planescape was never actually a good game, was it? Don't get me wrong, I loved it. But certainly not for the gameplay. Gameplay-wise, Planescape was below average, though it did have some cool magic and items. Baldur's Gate 2, on the other hand, is one of the best games I've played. Dragon Age, another game that is "in the spirit of the IE games", doesn't even begin to come close. Thus my point, that to me at least, yes, it's the small things that matter. The small things alone can take a game from poor to excellent.

I don't think Dragon Age was bad because of "small things". Which one of the following primary elements did it contain?

The IE games were characterized primarily by their six party member, micro-managed tactical combat with interesting and varied encounter design, 2D isometric graphics without tiles, and text-heavy story, setting and dialogue.

Only the latter, and even that's debatable because the full voice acting surely crippled it.

 

[Lancehead]

DAO had micro management of the party.

 

[Infinitron]

DAO had micro management of the party.

You could say that DA:O was a half-assed attempt at implementing IE-style combat. Micromanagement was possible, but rarely actually necessary. In the IE games, it was pretty much mandatory except in the most trivial of trash mob fights, and even then you had to at least move your mages away from the fray.

 

[suejak]

DAO had micro management of the party.

Good luck with playing an IE game without ever commanding an allied party member (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zMhnlJb5BDY)

 

[Infinitron]

Oh god, that.

 

[Lancehead]

I'm not saying anything about the execution, just that it had party management.

 

[Raapys]

I don't think Dragon Age was bad because of "small things". Which one of the following primary elements did it contain?

The IE games were characterized primarily by their six party member, micro-managed tactical combat with interesting and varied encounter design, 2D isometric graphics without tiles, and text-heavy story, setting and dialogue.

Only the latter, and even that's debatable because the full voice acting surely crippled it.

Arguably true, but I mean, "interesting and varied encounter design"? There are a lot of small details in that one. It's not one large and comprehensive feature, it's countless smaller ones. Six party members? Well yeah, but I've played the IE games with less, I've even soloed them, didn't change stuff all that much. Still didn't make Dragon Age come any closer.

Micromanaged combat? Except for spellcasters, I think Dragon Age actually had more of that than the IE games. 2D isometric? 2D, 3D, doesn't matter that much, only matters if the camera is annoying or not. Can't remember it being so bad in DA that it really hurt. Maybe slightly worse than in IE games. As for story, setting and dialog...Dragon Age certainly wasn't great in this area, but except for Planescape, neither were the IE games.

So yeah, maybe you don't agree with my estimation of those 'primary elements', but to me at least they didn't make *that* big a difference.

 

[Infinitron]

Arguably true, but I mean, "interesting and varied encounter design"? There are a lot of small details in that one. It's not one large and comprehensive feature, it's countless smaller ones.

Actually, it's not a "feature" at all. It's content.

And that's what's missing from people's rage-filled reactions to Project Eternity's altered rules and mechanics. We still have no idea what the content of the game will be, and that above everything else determines the quality of this type of RPG.

Baldur's Gate 2 would be shit without good encounter design. Baldur's Gate 2 would not be shit if a few AD&D rules were altered from Baldur's Gate 1.

 

[Infinitron]

I'll repeat my prediction from earlier in this thread:

Prediction: When this game is released, after the first month, very few people will be complaining about the mechanics or rules. The vast majority of the complaints will be about the controls, the setting or some particularly boring or unpolished area of the game.

You guys are pissing your pants about shit that Just. Doesn't. Really. Matter.

 

[suejak]

HAHAHAHAHAHAH, https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=YbBscTKtLpI&list=PL53EEC24681925EEA#t=130s

This is literally the only clip I've been able to find where the player changed to direct control of an NPC, and that was only because the main PC died

"Holy God that was awesome!!! That last battle in particular was intense. When I saw you and another member fall, I thought your party was done for. I love how they instantly resurrect, no fuss - no muss "

 

[Captain Shrek]

I'll repeat my prediction from earlier in this thread:

Prediction: When this game is released, after the first month, very few people will be complaining about the mechanics or rules. The vast majority of the complaints will be about the controls, the setting or some particularly boring or unpolished area of the game.

You guys are pissing your pants about shit that Just. Doesn't. Really. Matter.

Quoted.

Claim: Most people will admit combat is shit if the current model Sawyer is proposing is unchanged.

 

[Raapys]

Guess I'll make one too then.

Claim: The game will have a "teleport out of dungeon" feature, like all modern and awesome games.

edit: scratch that, it's pretty much a given.

New Claim: Most people will agree that the gameplay, game mechanics, character development, spells and combat all ended up being distinctly average and generic.

 

[Infinitron]

Seriously, you guys. Why not worry about whether Project Eternity will have an equivalent of Firkraag or the Twisted Rune battles, or an awesome dungeon on par with Dragon's Eye or the Severed Hand?

These are the things that make games awesome. These are the things that people remember.

Instead we have a thread with 200 pages of people raging over health and inventory mechanics. Unbelievable.

 

[Gord]

I think this whole discussion only shows that everyone loved or hated other aspects about IE games and will now claim that those aspects are wade made those games.
Seems about as useful as the whole "What is an rpg?" discussion to me.

Anyway, I think if you expect PE to be an exact remake of IE games only with better graphics, you WILL be disappointed.
I doubt that is what they originally set out to do and it is hardly what will come out of it in the end.
Until I see something really substantial, or better yet, actually play PE, the endless bitching about how mechanic x sounds like it will be shit or mechanic y should be done differently seems pointless. Because I don't know if and how it actually works in the game. Sure guys, you invested some money into the game and now feel you should influence development in a way that the game will seem less shit to you. That's quite understandable (even considering that the amount of money you did invest is something in the region of 0.0005% of the total invested sum). Too bad about 100000 other backers do the same thing, only with their vision of the game.
If the devs have a minimum amount of self-respect and professionalism, they will ignore most of that and just do their thing.

This is literally the only clip I've been able to find where the player changed to direct control of an NPC, and that was only because the main PC died

Never played the console version, which supposedly was even more geared towards aRPG than the pc version.
I did, however, do quite a lot of switching between party members to micromanage some of their abilities and stuff in the pc version. Although you could manually set up some rules to make them do stuff automatically according to certain triggers, iirc.

 

[evdk]

Seriously, you guys. Why not worry about whether Project Eternity will have an equivalent of Firkraag or the Twisted Rune battles, or an awesome dungeon on par with Dragon's Eye or the Severed Hand?

These are the things that make games awesome. These are the things that people remember.

Instead we have a thread with 200 pages of people raging over health and inventory mechanics. Unbelievable.

It's probably because nobody is doubting their ability to design fun encounters / locations, while on the other hand Sawyer keeps spouting questionable opinions about mechanics.

 

[Infinitron]

It's probably because nobody is doubting their ability to design fun encounters / locations

I'm not so sure about that. NWN2 certainly wasn't so good at those things.

But yes, of course, Sawyer generally refuses to discuss content, only mechanics. He tries to address things from a pure "systems engineer" perspective, without the context of actual gameplay examples, which IMO is a serious mistake. Most people just aren't able to judge mechanics on their own like that, isolated from context. They tend to invent their own context that generally puts the mechanics being discussed in the worst possible light.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I'll repeat my prediction from earlier in this thread:


You guys are pissing your pants about shit that Just. Doesn't. Really. Matter.

I completely agree with you on this. I´m seeing too much discussion about details that the vast majority of people won´t even notice or mind during their time with the game.

That being said, i put the blame on the devs. They are forcing our collective retardation with the slow PR in regards to the game art.

We need to see more screens, even a shitty 30 second video of an ogre scratching it´s head would provide discussion fodder here on the codex for the foreseeable future.

 

[Captain Shrek]

It's probably because nobody is doubting their ability to design fun encounters / locations

I'm not so sure about that. NWN2 certainly wasn't so good at those things.

But yes, of course, Sawyer generally refuses to discuss content, only mechanics. He tries to address things from a pure "systems engineer" perspective, without the context of actual gameplay examples, which IMO is a serious mistake. Most people just aren't able to judge mechanics on their own like that, isolated from context. They tend to invent their own context that generally puts the mechanics being discussed in the worst possible light.

I think evdk meant Fun characters and locations.