Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Scruffy]

Most fun i had in an RPG was in PST, and you were an immortal that steamrolled through every encounter with minimal difficulty.

On the other hand, look at BG2, running back to a temple to ressurect party members, or using a scroll/wand, running back to a merchant to sell loot, resting, drinking potions or using spells to regen HP´s... Did you guys seriously think of them as features? They are nothing more than tedious game time padding.

Story, character, actual combat encounters... those are features, those are what you will remember 20 years from now while discussing a great RPG...

well, the point of D&D games is giving you a D&D experience. In D&D you are a group of adventurers. Adventurers need to res party memebers, sell their loot, resting... it's just that it's more fun to do it with Pen&Paper than in a videogame.

 

[roshan]

Let's play devil's advocate:

1) What does it matter what level she is, as long as the fight is challenging? Typically, bosses have special abilities and allies, and this is what makes them difficult to overcome. Their "level" is not that important.

2) Who cares if you autoresurrect? You're gonna cast resurrect yourself anyway as soon as you get back to town. The dungeon is over at that point.

You see, roshan, where you see "difficulty", others just see meaningless details and busy-work.

1. I don't want idiocracy in my RPG. There is no challenge in level scaled enemies. The point of level scaling is to make sure that any player can get past any encounter, thus dumbing down for morons. This is why the bosses and plot critical encounters are being level scaled, as opposed to the IE games where you were forced to step up with your tactics when faced with challenging situations. When any player can win any battle, that leaves the question, what distinguishes one battle for another? This, IMO, is why Sawyer has mentioned that he thinks it's important to get the encounter time of IE games right, since you are going to win all the time anyway, the only barometer distinguishing one battle from another is the amount of time spent on that encounter. By tweaking variables like this, it is possible to convince stupid people that they have actually been challenged. "Oh, I spent five minutes fighting Sherincal, as opposed to 30 seconds fighting that Orc! I must have just won a difficult battle!" Illussion of difficulty. NOT REAL CHALLENGE.

2. WRONG! In the IE games you could choose not to use resurrection spells. In fact, I have NEVER resurrected a character in any IWD or IWD2 playthrough. It has always been my policy to win all battles with all my characters surviving. In Project Eternity I would be unable to set such standards for myself. It would make no fucking logical sense at all to reload and redo a battle when my character has already autoresurrected against my will.

 

[Tigranes]

think we've said this before, but the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters and even then, only within a range of levels. E.g. take a boss like Sherincal in IWD2. Maybe you'll encounter her at 5th level, but it's possible you could encounter her at 8th level. If 5th-8th is the most common range, we'd scale around that, but if you encounter her sub-5th level, you'll have to deal with the difference. If you encounter her at 9th or 10th by some x-treme XP mining, it will be a little easier for you.

I can live with that, seeing as someone like me would nearly always be at least level 8 by that point (having done most things available), and thus would never know the difference.

"Oh, I spent five minutes fighting Sherincal, as opposed to 30 seconds fighting that Orc! I must have just won a difficult battle!"

If that happens, then Sawyer lied and the RNG is Oblivio-broken. I'll hate it when I see it, though, and not in your head.

 

[Infinitron]

There is no challenge in level scaled enemies.

That doesn't necessarily follow. What if they're scaled to always be much more powerful than you? To always kick your ass?

Also nice job ignoring my post.

 

[Gord]

What he said in that post is that some plot-critical encounters will be scaled within a certain range.
No idea how big that range will be, but he also said that you can get a very hard fight if you proceed very fast or an easy one if you do much grinding.
This is hardly "to make sure that any player can get past any encounter, thus dumbing down for morons", imho.
On its own it doesn't tell anything about difficulty, because theoretically they could scale those encounters to be always face-meltingly hard. Not that they will do that, but level-scaling alone doesn't automatically equal easy-mode.
Now, I wouldn't mind if the difficulty/encounter levels would be completely fixed instead of scaled within a certain range, but it doesn't sound like Oblivion-level scaling.

As for auto-regen vs potions/limited spells: I consider resource-management an not completely unimportant part of rpgs, therefore having to rely on (limited) resting and potions or spells for healing seems more interesting to me than auto-regen.

 

[roshan]

There is no challenge in level scaled enemies.

That doesn't necessarily follow. What if they're scaled to always be much more powerful than you? To always kick your ass?

If they wanted enemies to always kick your ass then there would be no need for any sort of scaling whatsoever. Scaling can only be to make sure you always kick the enemy's ass.

Also nice job ignoring my post.

Everything in your post has been addressed.

 

[Infinitron]

The main argument against level scaling has never been just that "there is no challenge" because of it. That's only an argument against one particular (bad) implementation of level scaling. The main complaint about level scaling has always been that it makes the world less unpredictable, and less reactive to the player's efforts to make himself more powerful and gain an advantage.

Thing is, level scaling really has its greatest effect on "trash mobs", enemies and monsters who mostly use normal attacks. Their performance tends to rely on attributes that are directly determined by level, such as HP and BAB.

Bosses, on the other hand, have abilities, items, spells and allies. These things are not so affected by level. You could say that they are "greater than the sum of their experience points".

Bosses are also, by their very nature, rarely encountered, so the player probably won't even notice that they're scaled. There's just not enough of them in the game to notice the pattern.

 

[roshan]

theoretically they could scale those encounters to be always face-meltingly hard

This is the sort of theory that can only exist in the imagination of an apologist. Logically, there is no need for level scaling if your goal is to make encounters face meltingly difficult. You can tweak hundreds of abilities and statistics of the enemies in order to make them difficult. There is no need for level scaling.

The only purpose of level scaling is to make sure that the encounters never get too challenging. And this has already been stated in the update: "the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters", "to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content". The goal is to make sure that weak characters don't find themselves with too much of a challenge. Fanboys refuse to see what's right in front of their eyes.

 

[roshan]

The main argument against level scaling has never been just "there is no challenge". That's only an argument against one particular (bad) implementation of level scaling. The main complaint about level scaling has always been that it makes the world less unpredictable, and less reactive to the player's efforts to make himself more powerful and gain an advantage.

This is a straw man argument. I don't oppose level scaling because it will prevent me from gaining an advantage, but because it will ensure that I am ALWAYS at an advantage. The purpose of level scaling is to make sure that all bosses are defeatable regardless of my character level. This means the encounter has already been designed so that I can get passed it no matter what while undergoing only a limited amount of difficulty.

Thing is, level scaling really has its greatest effect on "trash mobs", enemies and monsters who mostly use normal attacks. Their performance tends to rely on attributes that are directly determined by level, such as HP and BAB.

Bosses, on the other hand, have abilities, items, spells and allies. These things are not so affected by level. You could say that they are "greater than the sum of their experience points".

All these things can be level scaled too.

Bosses are also, by their very nature, rarely encountered, so the player probably won't even notice that they're scaled. There's just not enough of them in the game to notice the pattern.

This is irrelevant to the fact that level scaling will remove challenge from fighting bosses since it has already been prearranged/ensured that you will defeat them regardless of your prior actions.

 

[Infinitron]

because it will ensure that I am ALWAYS at an advantage

No, it won't.

Do you have anything else to say?

 

[imweasel]

This is the sort of theory that can only exist in the imagination of an apologist. Logically, there is no need for level scaling if your goal is to make encounters face meltingly difficult. You can tweak hundreds of abilities and statistics of the enemies in order to make them difficult. There is no need for level scaling.

Don't worry. The scaling is minimal (like in BG) and will only be used for balancing issues as it seems. The hardcore ironman mode will certainly be brutal, if Sawyer doesn't turn out to be a liar at least. ^^ I am actually more worried about the other mechanics, like the self regenerating stamina (health) bar.

The main argument against level scaling has never been just that "there is no challenge" because of it. That's only an argument against one particular (bad) implementation of level scaling. The main complaint about level scaling has always been that it makes the world less unpredictable, and less reactive to the player's efforts to make himself more powerful and gain an advantage.

Well, level scaling does make the game less challenging and it also robs the player of his sense of progression. Substantial level scaling is always a bad thing.

 

[Lancehead]

While level scaling in and of itself has nothing to do with combat difficulty, it's true that in practice it's employed to effect easier combat. For the bosses, though, I think the thinking is to actually make those boss fights always reasonably difficult. So it really depends what/how much this "reasonable" is.

 

[Infinitron]

I should also add that boss battles are meant to be climactic "set-piece" affairs, and as such it makes sense to scale them up a bit to match the player's level, if he's gone the extra effort to make himself more powerful by completing side content.

Piss easy boss battles are no fun. There's reactivity to player progress, and then there's a boring curb-stomp instead of what should have been a challenging battle.

By the way, Baldur's Gate 2 did this, so this is not a violation of sacred Infinity Engine tenets.

 

[almondblight]

As for experimenting. Fine. But then don't lie about it. The kickstarter should have said what it was going to be. OHI GUYS, SAWYER WANTS TO TRY OUT LOTZ OF NEW STUFF AND HE WOULD LIEK U GUIZE TO PAI FOR IT!11 I paid for a IE game. That's what I expected to get. He can 'experiment' for someone else's cash.

We knew about kewldowns, stamina regeneration, XP from goals and not combat, separate pools for combat and non-combat skills, etc.,during the Kickstarter. Honestly, if anyone lacked the comprehension to realize that this game would be different from the IE games in several ways, it's their own fault.

 

[roshan]

No, it won't.

I'll leave you to your leftist delusions.

 

[Infinitron]

No, it won't.

I'll leave you to your leftist delusions.

You know, I'm actually a firebreathing reactionary in real life. M:

 

[roshan]

While level scaling in and of itself has nothing to do with combat difficulty, it's true that in practice it's employed to effect easier combat. For the bosses, though, I think the thinking is to actually make those boss fights always reasonably difficult. So it really depends what/how much this "reasonable" is.

This is incorrect:

The only purpose of level scaling is to make sure that the encounters never get too challenging. And this has already been stated in the update: "the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters", "to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content". The goal is to make sure that weak characters don't find themselves with too much of a challenge.

 

[Infinitron]

While level scaling in and of itself has nothing to do with combat difficulty, it's true that in practice it's employed to effect easier combat. For the bosses, though, I think the thinking is to actually make those boss fights always reasonably difficult. So it really depends what/how much this "reasonable" is.

This is incorrect:

The only purpose of level scaling is to make sure that the encounters never get too challenging. And this has already been stated in the update: "the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters", "to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content". The goal is to make sure that weak characters don't find themselves with too much of a challenge.

Look you idiot, you could just as easily look at it from the other way.

The "default" encounter is lower level, and the encounter is boosted in difficulty to accommodate those who do side content.

For fuck's sake, you'd better be trolling.

 

[tuluse]

This is the sort of theory that can only exist in the imagination of an apologist. Logically, there is no need for level scaling if your goal is to make encounters face meltingly difficult. You can tweak hundreds of abilities and statistics of the enemies in order to make them difficult. There is no need for level scaling.

The only purpose of level scaling is to make sure that the encounters never get too challenging. And this has already been stated in the update: "the only things we're likely to scale with player level are crit-path special encounters", "to allow for the fact that not everyone wants to do a lot of side content". The goal is to make sure that weak characters don't find themselves with too much of a challenge. Fanboys refuse to see what's right in front of their eyes.

By the same token, if you want combat to always be easy there is no need for level scaling either. You can make them all piss weak from the start.

 

[Hormalakh]

Look didn't BG2 have scaling? What exactly is the problem with scaling for plot-driven content, if done right?

 

[Aeschylus]

Level scaling in BG2 (and other IE games to a lesser extend, as they were more linear), only made encounters more challenging as I recall. i.e. there was a certain baseline encounter, which would be added to or built upon if they player came in at a much higher level to avoid making everything a walk in the park. Like, if you went to Windspear Hills right away you'd run into a couple Stone Golems (easy) in a hallway, but if you went in later when you were much stronger, a clay or iron golem would be added to the encounter on top of that.

I fail to see how this is guaranteeing that you are always at an advantage.

 

[imweasel]

^
The level scaling in BG was minimal and only used in certain situations, like for critical path special encounters. The content was scaled using encounter scaling and not level scaling though.

 

[Infinitron]

^
The level scaling in BG was minimal and only used in certain situations, like for critical path special encounters. The content was scaled using encounter scaling and not level scaling though.

Yes. Of course, I'm sure roshan thinks the idea of "encounter scaling" is just as horrible as level scaling. It's scaled so that anybody can finish it, rite?? There couldn't be any other reason!

 

[Aeschylus]

^
The level scaling in BG was minimal and only used in certain situations, like for critical path special encounters. The content was scaled using encounter scaling and not level scaling though.

Well, since monsters in 2eD&D didn't have 'levels' that could be scaled per se, but rather set hit dice, encounter scaling was really the only way they could do it. I guess I've always interpreted 'level scaling' as simply being changes to encounters based on the player's level, rather than just the specific practice of making enemies have the same level as the PC (which I agree is terrible).

 

[Grunker]

^
The level scaling in BG was minimal and only used in certain situations, like for critical path special encounters. The content was scaled using encounter scaling and not level scaling though.

Wasn't level scaling only used in monster spawns? It wasn't used for "critical path encounters" as far as I know.