Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Lancehead]

I don't get why this "balance" discussion is focussed on Sawyer. He can do all he wants, if content is not there to fully support the system, there'd be imbalances. That said, removing kill xp is a good thing for balance, so are (for a party based game) split skill pools.

Basically, I agree with

It's less about the system itself than the interaction of the system and the content.

This.

 

[imweasel]

He's going to do it right.

Well, we'll see how "Project: Deus Ex Skyrim" turns out.

And don't get your hopes up too high, because it juuuuust might turn out to be shit.

 

[hiver]

no shit?

 

[Hormalakh]

Sawyer's comments on monks. From the OEI forums. Interested in hearing y'alls thoughts.

On a slightly side note - if monks preffer to use no/light armor to make the best of their fighting abilities how are they going to survive in the front rows of the fights where they have tobe to do damage with their unarmed attacks or weapons? Will they get natural DT as a class specific bonus? Will they get AC bonus from wisdo to a degree that they have enough AC to become "evasion tanks"?

Monks convert a portion of Stamina damage, pre-subtraction from their own Stamina total, into Wounds (their resource). Their actual Stamina and Health are not higher than normal, but this class ability effectively makes them more durable -- until they have maxed out the number of Wounds they are able to absorb.

Will monks have any form of spell resistance in P:E ? Or will this be more of a will power centric class

We haven't worked out their higher level abilities, but Tim and I have discussed the basic idea of monks as attack absorbers/modifiers, so something like spell/magic resistance would not be out of line with what we're thinking.

 

[tuluse]

I like this monk archetype so far. It's like a Street Fighter character, take damage to build up a super meter.

 

[Hormalakh]

I kinda like it too It's very different and I wouldn't mind playing it. It's like you've built a "tank" archetype but ....different.

 

[Hormalakh]

Q: If I read this correctly, then having a monk companion will require more returns to camp than normal (for health recovery).

Josh:
You're not reading it correctly. Here's an example: Bad Guy hits Cool Monk with a sword for 21 damage. Cool Monk has 5 DT, so 16 damage gets through. Of that, let's say (arbitrarily, this is not based on any formula we've devised) 5 points are converted to Wounds. Cool Monk takes 11 points of Stamina damage and 2.75 points of Health damage. The 5 points converted to Wounds have no influence on Cool Monk's current Stamina or Health.

 

[Lancehead]

How do they recover Wounds?

 

[Hormalakh]

I'd imagine they'd have to spend more stamina. I also imagine that they can only use this ability a limited number of times per rest. i.e. I don't know.

 

[Hormalakh]

There was a concern raised over the weekend that armor type and weapon type would degenerate into a useless exercise of "just switching up weapons" and basically offer no tactical challenge. There were a whole bunch of ideas thrown around to solve this problem. The discussion started here and went on for a few pages. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/?p=1301705 This afternoon, I asked JE Sawyer about it on the OEI forums. He had some interesting things to say and some of it might be relevant to other concerns. It was in the same thread. I thought you guys might enjoy it. BTW: I imagine some of you guys don't really like looking at the OEI forums and appreciate these little tidbits. If I should stop, lemme know.

Hormalakh, on 21 Jan 2013 - 13:56, said:

Hi Josh,

I wanted to know if you had any thoughts about the concerns that allowing several weapon slots and knowing your enemies armor type degenerating into a boring exercise of changing up weapon-types to "match up" with the armor type. Some suggested some sort of draw-back or challenge, slightly complexity involved in this equation to help make the answer so non-trivial. Something like using an attack or two to change weapons (player cannot attack during this time) so as to make it an actual decision.

What weapons you ready and use at any given moment is one choice among many. If combats consisted of one PC fighting one enemy, yes, the choice would be pretty minor. There are many additional factors to consider. Among them:



* Switching weapons plays a weapon switching animation. It's not instantaneous.

* There is an efficiency gulf "under the curve" even among weapons that are good against an armor type. Within a given armor type, DTs can still cover a large range. Against a target in mid/high-DT light armor, using two hatchets can result in a 30% damage loss vs. using a greatsword. Against a low DT target, the relationship is reversed: the faster weapons doing less damage per hit do damage much faster. Ultimately, avoiding the "bad" damage type is only one part of the efficacy equation.

* Not every character is ideal for facing every type of enemy. Tough Fighter might have a maul, but Tough Fighter may not be the right character to stand in front of a cipher in plate armor making short-range Willpower attacks.

* You can't control every element of positioning. Characters often wind up in circumstances they are not ideally suited for and enemies are often placed (or enter an environment) in ways that foil good plans. Adapting to circumstances may involve having a nearby character switch weapons, but it may be better/more efficient for a more distant character, who is already well-equipped and a better counter to the attack, to cross the battlefield.



If fights consisted of characters with identical armor types, that would devolve pretty quickly -- much as it can in standard D&D when you get attacked by creatures with matched DR types. In yesterday's Pathfinder game, the party fought against two skeletons (DR 5/Bludgeoning). Pretty simple fight. Replacing a skeleton with a zombie in the fight (DR 5/Slashing) would have immediately changed how the party chose weapons, targets, and moved on the battlefield. It's not exactly the Battle of the Bulge, but complex scenarios are often the accumulated questions posed by simple problems. TL;DR: What weapon type to avoid against a given enemy is just one consideration among many.

 

[Infinitron]

As an RPG Codex staff member, I command you not to stop.

 

[Lancehead]

How do they recover Wounds?

I think Sawyer already answered this question.

Many of their special abilities are unlocked via mortification of the flesh, i.e. as they take incoming Stamina damage, they immediately convert a portion of it into a resource they can use to power things like stun attacks. Damage absorbed in this way does not influence Health and is a motivating factor for ability-oriented monk characters to wear lighter (or no) armor, though they can certainly be overpowered by heavily damaging attacks.

So I guess recovering Wounds is by simply spending them on things like stun attacks.

But I already sent him the question, so I'll see if he has anything else to add, like if Wounds are "depleted" if you rest.

Hormalakh Keep them coming; I rarely read their forums.

 

[imweasel]

The skill sounds good. It shall do.

 

[Rake]

Josh:
Wounds are unique to the monk class. They're a resource used to power their special abilities. This sounds like pure benefit, so more damage received = better than -- but that's not really the case. Wounds have to be "spent" within a certain amount of time or they will be applied as damage. If Wounds are spent, that stack of damage is gone for good. If Wounds are acquired faster than the monk can spend them, It Is Bad. If a monk absorbs their maximum amount of Wounds, damage above that amount is applied normally. So it's not always the best idea to just strip every monk naked and flip off demon lords at point-blank range.

 

[Infinitron]

Hmm, so you have to spend wounds faster than you receive them, before your "wound stack" overflows.

Sounds like that could get twitchy. Micro managing monks? Micro-monking?

Of course, I imagine the wound-based monk abilities take time to use, so if you're surrounded by enemies while you're using them, that stack will overflow rather quickly.

 

[Rake]

Yes but i imagine that monk abilities take some time to cast them. There is no way you will be able to spent them faster than you are hit.
But yes, it sounds like they will recuire micro managing

 

[Excidium]

Well, no shit, it's a RT game. Mechanic reminds of Rage in wow. Bet monks will have something like heroic strike.

 

[imweasel]

And how exactly do monks "spend" wounds?

And what does he do with them, turn them into fireballs and shoot them?

 

[Excidium]

it's the resource for their special abilities. Hokuto Shinken | Instant | 10 Wounds | 30 sec CD

 

[Infinitron]

Yes but i imagine that monk abilities take some time to cast them. There is no way you will be able to spent them faster than you are hit.
But yes, it sounds like they will recuire micro managing

Perhaps there will be a way to program the monk to automatically use wounds as they are inflicted.

it's the resource for their special abilities. Hokuto Shinken | Instant | 10 Wounds | 30 sec CD

Yes, except these monks aren't going to be Asian-themed.

 

[Excidium]

Probably a toggle that adds a modifiers to his attacks by consuming wounds, if I know Sawyer.

it's the resource for their special abilities. Hokuto Shinken | Instant | 10 Wounds | 30 sec CD

Yes, except these monks aren't going to be Asian-themed.

Yeah I know, it's just the first monk-ish thing that popped to my mind. Still, they're going to be punching stuff and striking vital points.

 

[imweasel]

Ohh. Martin Luther Battlemonks.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

And how exactly do monks "spend" wounds?

And what does he do with them, turn them into fireballs and shoot them?

ATATATATATATATATATTATATATATATATTATA!!!!!!!!

Hopefully. I will wait for the mod.

 

[imweasel]

Gay sneaking mechanic for your pleasure @ Formspring:

Sawyer: The simplest form would be more stealth skill = get closer to guys w/o alerting them. Super sneak rogue: crawl inside enemy's shirt. Moderately talented fighter: get within 15'. Clumsy idiot: get within 30'. Some enemies stand still, some patrol. Players can intentionally make enemies suspicious to manipulate their movement to make passage easier for their clumsy idiot teammates. OR NOT if they aren't good enough. Also, blowing stealth at close range might be fine for Tough Fighter, but not great for the mentioned Geriatric Wizard. On the OEI forums, I already showed my ToEE example with my thief. If the other party members had high H/MS skills, they probably could have come along. Instead it was 30 mins of carefully creeping him around every bad guy who could have smashed him.

 

[TheEntitledOne]

And what about the skill to hide in the enemy's anus?