Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Kem0sabe]

Actually, low-int "stupid" dialogue is already confirmed for Project Eternity.

Interesting, i love making a dumb and dumber RPG playthrough.

 

[Infinitron]

You guys know anything about multiclassing or dual classes? Or any other kind of mixing classes.
I asked on formspring but didnt get an answer yet.

maybe sending a few more questions about it would help?

I'm pretty sure there won't be any.

Instead the core classes will be more flexible.

 

[Roguey]

In not-YCS Josh said he's against multiclassing. It's possible (but doubtful) that he'll change his mind which is why he's not answering.

 

[hiver]

Shame if true. A combination of a cipher and rogue seems too sweet, for example.
Im not asking specifically about literal multi-classes though. Just the possibility of mixing different abilities - whatever form that may take or however it is constrained.
I asked just yesterday too.

 

[imweasel]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

 

[Infinitron]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

You do know that Excel supports "functions and plotters" too, right? He's not manually entering all this shit.

 

[Bony]

You do know that Excel supports "functions and plotters" too, right? He's not manually entering all this shit.

He has to, this is the only way to create an oldschool rpg, through sweat blood and repetition. Like our ancestor Neanderthals did.

 

[Aeschylus]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

Excel is one of the better ways to organize data for import into actual statistical programs. It also contains a large number of statistical functions itself which makes it a decent option for simple analysis (though Open Office is better).

 

[imweasel]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

You do know that Excel supports "functions and plotters" too, right? He's not manually entering all this shit.

No, he isn't manually entering it all. But he is trying to design the system using very simple math in an excel table (which won't work). He is not using functions.

He really needs to use functions, because the system he proposed is somewhat complicated. If he can't do it himself then he should ask someone who can do it for him, because what he is doing is ridiculous.

 

[Koschey]

Okay, so you want a sword to do more damage if a player improves his skill for using swords. I'm saying the Infinity Engine games didn't work that way, so Project Eternity has no reason to implement such a system.

In a classical D&D-esque system, your damage is determined by your Strength attribute, not by your swordsmanship skill. Skill is for hit chance, not for damage.

Proficiency->Specialisation->Mastery->High Mastery->Grand Mastery

While not all IE games implemented the proficiency rules the same way, damage DID in general increase with the number of allotted proficiency slots. The system was only binary for non-warrior classes.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

You do know that Excel supports "functions and plotters" too, right? He's not manually entering all this shit.

No, he isn't manually entering it all. But he is trying to design the system using very simple math in an excel table (which won't work). He is not using functions.

He really needs to use functions, because the system he proposed is somewhat complicated. If he can't do it himself then he should ask someone who can do it for him, because what he is doing is ridiculous.

=MAX(SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Min/Max Damage,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DT,DWF,Rate)),PRODUCT(MDTDT,Min/Max Damage))

^^ This is the Excel function he is using you dumbass.

 

[Infinitron]

Obsidian developer lurker detected?

Also: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/418779860102575869

I've noticed you haven't really discussed Project Eternity's attributes (Strength, Dexterity, et al) in length. I'm beginning to wonder if they're going to be there at all.

There will be attributes. I would rather design the rest of our system and subsequently determine what attributes make sense/what they should affect than design attributes first.

 

[Jaesun]

Obsidian is not located in North Carolina.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Just a pleb who's been playing with JES' system in Excel all morning. If anyone is interested, this is actually a more accurate model:

=IF((SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Damage Roll,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DT,Rate,DWF))>DT),(SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Damage Roll,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DMG*,DWF,DT,Rate))),PRODUCT(MDTDT,Rate,DMG*,Damage Roll,DWF))

But needs another if statement to deal with DT negation. Replaced Min/Max Damage with the single variable Damage Roll.

 

[Aeschylus]

Look. I agree that excel is not bad for organizing statistical data and shit but calling it one of the better ways is probably it taking it too far. To be honest I don't expect them to use matlab for games. But just sayin'.

Excel is one of the better ways to organize data for import into actual statistical programs. It also contains a large number of statistical functions itself which makes it a decent option for simple analysis (though Open Office is better).

Read better. "Actual statistical programs" are things like R and SPSS which are what should be used for real statistical analysis. But frankly, what's being done for this game is not so complicated that that would be necessary, so Excel is fine.

 

[tuluse]

This is ridiculous. Excel is perfectly acceptable for what Sawyer is doing.

 

[Captain Shrek]

This is ridiculous. Excel is perfectly acceptable for what Sawyer is doing.

Yes. It is.

 

[imweasel]

Don't expect that to change either. Josh is spending countless hours trying to design the combat/weapons system using a FUCKING EXCEL TABLE. He could have been done in a day if he used functions and a plotter...

You do know that Excel supports "functions and plotters" too, right? He's not manually entering all this shit.

No, he isn't manually entering it all. But he is trying to design the system using very simple math in an excel table (which won't work). He is not using functions.

He really needs to use functions, because the system he proposed is somewhat complicated. If he can't do it himself then he should ask someone who can do it for him, because what he is doing is ridiculous.

=MAX(SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Min/Max Damage,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DT,DWF,Rate)),PRODUCT(MDTDT,Min/Max Damage))

^^ This is the Excel function he is using you dumbass.

Fiddle fucking with equations is not a function you idiot. You could make a function out of his constants and equations, but that will still not solve the problem because his system is complicated. And Josh needs 3 different functions, one for every weapon type, otherwise it won't work. And he has not realised this yet, because he tried to solve it the wrong and extremely complicated bullshit way.
Fiddle fucking with these bullshit equations all day will get you absolutely no where, you would only be able to solve the problem through constant trial and error (= major fucking waste of time) and it would look like a bunch of kludgy bullshit on top of it. As we can see, he has already given up. That is because his approach is totally wrong.

Not to mention that even making a table is a total waste of time. If you plot a DT-damage-chart then you can instantly see how the weapons scale in relation to each other and to the damage threshold, this saves shitloads of time. I am not expecting everybody to know this, but Josh should as a (low level) game designer. And if he can't create functions himself, then he should ask for help (there is nothing wrong with that).

Now shut up and go back to school.

 

[imweasel]

This is ridiculous. Excel is perfectly acceptable for what Sawyer is doing.

Yes, it is. But his approach isn't.

 

[Infinitron]

Obsidian is not located in North Carolina.

Just a pleb who's been playing with JES' system in Excel all morning. If anyone is interested, this is actually a more accurate model:

=IF((SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Damage Roll,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DT,Rate,DWF))>DT),(SUM(PRODUCT(DMG*,Damage Roll,Rate,DWF),-PRODUCT(DMG*,DWF,DT,Rate))),PRODUCT(MDTDT,Rate,DMG*,Damage Roll,DWF))

But needs another if statement to deal with DT negation. Replaced Min/Max Damage with the single variable Damage Roll.

 

[Rostere]

Fiddle fucking with equations is not a function you idiot. You could make a function out of his constants and equations, but that will still not solve the problem because his system is complicated. And Josh needs 3 different functions, one for every weapon type, otherwise it won't work. And he has not realised this yet, because he tried to solve it the wrong and extremely complicated bullshit way.
Fiddle fucking with these bullshit equations all day will get you absolutely no where, you would only be able to solve the problem through constant trial and error (= major fucking waste of time) and it would look like a bunch of kludgy bullshit on top of it. As we can see, he has already given up. That is because his approach is totally wrong.

Not to mention that even making a table is a total waste of time. If you plot a DT-damage-chart then you can instantly see how the weapons scale in relation to each other and to the damage threshold, this saves shitloads of time. I am not expecting everybody to know this, but Josh should as a (low level) game designer. And if he can't create functions himself, then he should ask for help (there is nothing wrong with that).

Now shut up and go back to school.

I believe the word you're looking for is "graph", not function.

I can't see how you're trying to argue that Josh is not using functions. Exactly what are you trying to say is from a mathematician's point of view not a function? Also, it's hardly extremely complicated - I'd rather say it's fairly simple.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Should this discussion be in the spreadsheet sub-forum?

Bitching about Sawyer's failure to use the correct statistical analysis tools in evaluating the system is giving me a strange hankering for another inventory discussion.

 

[imweasel]

Fiddle fucking with equations is not a function you idiot. You could make a function out of his constants and equations, but that will still not solve the problem because his system is complicated. And Josh needs 3 different functions, one for every weapon type, otherwise it won't work. And he has not realised this yet, because he tried to solve it the wrong and extremely complicated bullshit way.
Fiddle fucking with these bullshit equations all day will get you absolutely no where, you would only be able to solve the problem through constant trial and error (= major fucking waste of time) and it would look like a bunch of kludgy bullshit on top of it. As we can see, he has already given up. That is because his approach is totally wrong.

Not to mention that even making a table is a total waste of time. If you plot a DT-damage-chart then you can instantly see how the weapons scale in relation to each other and to the damage threshold, this saves shitloads of time. I am not expecting everybody to know this, but Josh should as a (low level) game designer. And if he can't create functions himself, then he should ask for help (there is nothing wrong with that).

Now shut up and go back to school.

I believe the word you're looking for is "graph", not function.

I can't see how you're trying to argue that Josh is not using functions. Exactly what are you trying to say is from a mathematician's point of view not a function? Also, it's hardly extremely complicated - I'd rather say it's fairly simple.

No, I am talking about functions. Which you can create a graph of (also known as plotting). You know, shit like this.

Define complicated. And you do need 3 functions. It is not hard, but not something you can whip up in 2 minutes. If you think it's easy, then be my guest, plot the functions.

 

[Aeschylus]

^ I continue to not see why this would require any sort of higher level statistical functions. There's no need to do regression analysis because the dependencies are predictable, and the distributions are all entirely normal. You're talking like he's running a psychology experiment rather than just creating a simple equation with a few variables to calculate damage. So again... what is your point?

 

[imweasel]

^
I don't feel like writing anymore, so

I drew a simple example graph:

This is a simplified version of what Josh wanted (note: without MDTDT and some other bullshit. e.g. crushing also does decent damage with a low DT).
x-axis: damage threshold
y-axis: damage
f(x): slash damage (red)
g(x): crushing damage (green)
h(x): piercing damage (blue)

All you have to do is create the functions then plot them. When you are satisfied with it you code the function with c++ (very simple) and you're done.
As you can see, with a low DT slashing is the best, with a middle DT piercing is the best, and with a high DT crushing is the best (like Josh originally proposed).

With functions you can also do some nice tricks, like check how high the damage of a slashing weapon must be until it is better than an a certain piercing weapon vs. middle DT.