Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[imweasel]

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...tion-damage-vs-armor-and-a-tileset/?p=1303508

My solution to the proposed problem about Dt/Armor type. Read it and let me know what you think. I think Josh's mechanic is pretty good as long as he follows his own rules.

As you can see from my graph on the last page the best way to solve the problem is by using 3 functions, which he could convert to 3 different damage/resistance types for slashing, crushing and piercing.

He could of course just fiddle fuck with his beloved excel tables all day and night (which is the hard and stupid way), but he would still need these different variables. And he really should still use functions to design the system before converting the results to the different damage types, otherwise he is going to sit on that fucking table for days or maybe even weeks until he gets it right. And if something needs to be changed? Well, then he can have fun doing that shit all over again.

He could also solve it by just by using a value table, i.e. drawing a simple graph on paper and copying those values into a value table. He would then basically be using functions without the need to create a mathematical function.

 

[Infinitron]

functions

 

[imweasel]

functions

functions

And what is your problem Infinitron?

 

[Blaine]

Squabbling Over Minutiae: The Forum Thread

 

[some guy]

Are you swedish imweasel? That scrambled mess of a post made some sense with a bit of translation.

 

[Harold]

Gotta make a weapons dmg graph
That's right for me
So them weapons can keep me hackin'
Keep me slashin' with some energy

Well, I talk about it, talk about it
Talk about it, talk about it

Talk about, talk about
Talk about plottin' (them functions)

Gotta plot on
Gotta plot on
Gotta plot on

Oh Sawyer
Won't you take me to
Functiontown
Won't you take me to
Functiontown
Won't you take me to
Functiontown
Won't you take me to
Functiontown

 

[Azrael the cat]

Seriously? You're pissed off about that?

"Sorry, Bro. Sucks to be disabled, but letting you play games offends my sense of prestige."

I am not surprised at your sudden defense. Being a part of retarded gamers it was obvious you'd feel hurt.

Meh. Having retard strength is awesome.

The general wording there is fine but the only thing he actually mentions is range for pikes; a very minor distinction (albeit a babystep in the right direction). Anyway, there may be more info about this but even then until a working demo puts the pieces all together it's still mostly verbal masturbation.

Having said that, I guess I'd like to see things that varying damage to stamina/hp, attacks that cause very temporary status ailments, disable certain abilities, push characters back to break up formation, etc.

Definitely, this has always been an underused idea. AoD was on the right track here. Mixing a chance to very briefly stun an enemy could be a nice addition to crushing type attacks to balance out lower damage.

It would also be interesting to see some of these as passive effects for certain weapon types applied to enemies or allies within range of the weapon, like having spears disable charging or have quick weapons like rapiers reduce the attack speed of an enemy with which you are engaged (you have to be careful to not give a skilled duelist an opening). It could also be interesting if certain weapons had effects directly tied to being used as part of a formation, like having two or more guys with shields and spears in a tiny phalanx grant defensive bonuses to nearby allies against missile attacks.

Stun-on-every-hit with no use limit (as weapon effects generally are) is more difficult to balance in a party based game. Make it useful, and there's a big risk of creating an easy power-gaming tactic, where you equip your whole party with stun effects and use them to overwhelm enemies with near perma-stun. Decrease it to balance for stacked stun effects and it becomes useless for people with balanced parties.

It's certainly not impossible to overcome this kind of problem, but you'd need to provide enemies who can counter/resist stun tactics, or only include a handful of stun-capable weapons in the game.

 

[imweasel]

hehe, I see the retarded morons Harold and Infinitron don't like math, you must feel bad that you can't understand even the simplest 8th grade shit. The same goes for Sawyer. I guess retards just love retards, that is why you always protect his retardness and dream of sucking his cock. hehe

Yeah, this forum really is full of complete morons who can't even understand the simplest 8th grade math. No wonder it has a horrible reputation. See ya retards, have fun sucking Sawyer's cock and taking his shitty game up the ass.

 

[Spectacle]

Whose alt is imweasel?

 

[Blaine]

Beats me, but his invective little diatribes are the most entertaining part of this thread lately.

 

[Hormalakh]

Plotters. Functions. "Excel sucks." Someone hasn't worked in the industry.

The equation Arachnid gave, it's way too complicated. Its actually this:

=MAX(DMG*Min/MaxDamage*MDTDT*DWF*RATE, DMG*DWF*RATE*(Min/MaxDamage-(MAX(dt - DT-, 0))))

dt is the armor DT
DT- is the piercing by-pass
Min-MaxDamage will obviously be a variable number here.

As for "functions" and all that. He is using a function. And he is graphing it to the best of his ability. It's a multi-variable equation, he can't just use your simple pea-headed function to calculate that.

The biggest problem is that everyone is stuck in D&D PnP mode. It's much more complex than that system.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Meh. Having retard strength is awesome.




Definitely, this has always been an underused idea. AoD was on the right track here. Mixing a chance to very briefly stun an enemy could be a nice addition to crushing type attacks to balance out lower damage.

It would also be interesting to see some of these as passive effects for certain weapon types applied to enemies or allies within range of the weapon, like having spears disable charging or have quick weapons like rapiers reduce the attack speed of an enemy with which you are engaged (you have to be careful to not give a skilled duelist an opening). It could also be interesting if certain weapons had effects directly tied to being used as part of a formation, like having two or more guys with shields and spears in a tiny phalanx grant defensive bonuses to nearby allies against missile attacks.

I like this idea immensely, but not with a 100% proc chance. Would make choosing weapons more of a strategy instead of a numbers game.

 

[Roguey]

DA:O is dumbed down DnD.

It takes a lot of inspiration from D&D just like a million other games. It's also inspired by Diablo, WoW, and other games.

Even the setting is Grim-dark DnD.

Among other things.

Worse yet, they have removed everything that actually was tactical about DnD like managing skills and builds and replaced that with linear trees of abilities and actiony combat.

Pedantic: Builds are strategic, not tactical.
Actiony combat: No such thing in DA:O. Even the disabled gamers agree.
"Linear trees of abilities"

omg da is a smartened up version of Bioware's adaptation of Star Wars d20

The same is true of PE. Sawyer talks ALL THE FUCKING TIME about PE comparing it to DnD.

Because they're making an Infinity Engine successor.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Someone hasn't worked in the industry.

And you did? Or do you try to get Roguey's place as Sawyer's biggest cocksucker?

See this:

Because they're making an Infinity Engine successor.

Hilarious. You should try something like this.

 

[Hormalakh]

And you did? Or do you try to get Roguey's place as Sawyer's biggest cocksucker?

I've worked on designing complex systems before as a job, yes. Not necessarily game systems, no. In the real world, excel is used and is an extremely powerful tool if you know how to use it. From investment bankers, scientists, to engineers, these guys all use Excel. It is powerful if you know how to use it and can help make sense out of complex equations. Pretty much every game developer talks about "if you're interested in design, you need to learn excel. Use excel. Come up with spreadsheets." They don't sit and type in each number at a time. They come up with the equation they're looking for and use it as a multi-variate calculator. You can solve multi-variate equations very quickly with excel. Then if you want to "graph it" you can graph it quickly. Josh's spreadsheet has already been graphed. Those little blue bars he has next to each weapon? That's a histogram. It's a histogram on two-dimensions.

I'm not trying to back Sawyer but seriously some of the stuff being said here is just ridiculous. There is no understanding of the problem.

 

[imweasel]

Yeah, and I am an Engineer, I analyze graphs and spreadsheets all the fucking time.

Look, nobody said Excel can't be used to plot graphs or make spreadsheets you moron. But if you have to analyze a lot of data and see how the data scales in relation to each other then you graph a function (or use a value table if you are too stupid to create a function), you don't feed the data into a fucking excel table/spreadsheet and try to analyze it from there, only morons liek Josh Sawyer do that.
I emphasize ANALYZE, because that is what Sawyer is trying to do, but lead designer Sawyer is too fucking stupid to do it the right way. Anybody who has visited a 10th grade physics or math class knows this, but the stupid fuck retard lead designer of a $4 million project has no fucking idea on how he is actually supposed to to design his combat system. This idiot is actually trying to do low level design, even though he has no idea what he is doing. This has to be one of the saddest fucking things I have ever seen.

Not to mention that he is trying to design his combat system by using only one type of "generic" damage (like in D&D), even though the combat system he has proposed uses 3 different types (slashing, crushing and piercing) that do not all scale proportionately or inversely proportionately to each other. Anybody who is not a complete moron would instantly realise that he needs more variables to make it work. But not lead retard Josh Sawyer, he just keeps on trying to make it work by fiddle fucking with the numbers and eventually gives up, because he is too stupid to realise that his approach is fundamentally flawed.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. What I am trying to say is: You can explain something to a retard, but you can't expect him to understand. And the retardation in this forum is also absolutely abysmal. Not all, but quite a few. When I am in this thread I feel like I am surrounded by Josh Sawyer's little cocksucking retards.

 

[Infinitron]

I'm getting really tired of all these shitposters.

 

[Jaesun]

Welcome to the Codex Infinitron.

 

[Lord Andre]

Welcome to the Codex Infinitron.

Come on bro, bring back the snake. That thing is creeping me out.

 

[Delterius]

Welcome to the Codex Infinitron.

Come on bro, bring back the snake. That thing is creeping me out.

Is it the lack of pink glasses?

 

[Hormalakh]

For those interested in understanding Sawyer's mechanics:
There are three variables, each that deal with the specific kind of damage.

DMG does slashing damage.
DT- deals with piercing damage.
MDTDT deals with crushing damage. This is a different function though: it's a max function and in general looks something like this max (f(MDTDT),f(DT-))

f() means that this is a function that deals with this variable.

I'm sure you realize that he's using all three variables, DMG, DT-, and MDTDT in a singular function to come up with damage. There aren't three "kinds" of damage. There are three ways that you can damage someone. The damage is the same in all three weapons: your health falls. But how these damages work in relation to armor is different.

The mechanic is multivariate: it has several variables feed into a singular system, as most complex equations do. You cannot easily graph such a system on cartesian co-ordinates.

Edit: I've tried explaining the mechanic one more time on the OEI forums - it might help somebody here better understand the mechanic. There is very little math in this post and proposes how most players can solve the weapon problem without needing a spreadsheet. http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...tion-damage-vs-armor-and-a-tileset/?p=1303631

 

[Infinitron]

You're doing good work here Horm, I hope Sawyer pays attention.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yeah I've been bugging him all over the place. I think it's a shame for him to lose this mechanic. I think it does need some extra work though. It does slowly degenerate into a rock-paper-scissors kind of equation though, albeit a more flexible version of the game. Wearing plate armor is pretty much always going to be a good thing, unless the crushing weapons can somehow get some sort of bonus against plate. I think it's a good mechanic but it needs a few tweaks here and there. Nothing crazy like the 50% drop in efficacy though that he was talking about.

 

[tuluse]

I think he wanted the heaviest armor to be the best defensively. The drawback is it's reduced attack speed.

 

[Hormalakh]

Yes that's true. And ultimately he'll need to make changes to certain weapon speeds. It's so ... I can't think of a word for it .... wobbly? Like each scenario can have several right/wrong answers. It's interesting... And there are a lot of different things feeding into each other. If anyone wanted complexity though, this is it. It's a nice system.

Also, anyone interested in the spreadsheet can PM me: I've got a working copy that I can email out.