Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Shadenuat]

I hate thinking inside of tropes, it's just boring, lazy and usually wrong. When you accept the context, searching for G.E.C.K. is not that illogical. You have a dying chunk of people in tribal state who look into everything from the past as magical and mythical. So when they find a clue of something which can bring fertility back to the land they send their best and most spirited tribesman on it's search. And the G.E.C.K. then quickly gets de-romanticized into nothing but a bunch of field chemicals and collection of random seeds - another purely utilitarian item marketed in pre-war magazines as some wonder, the same magazines people now use to clean their asses with. But the protagonist, being rat-eating tribal he is, is till obsessed with it's "magic" (not very logical for someone with 200% Science of course).
The game would be better if in the end people did't actually need the G.E.C.K. to make their lives better (banal moral lesson, but at least it would still be a lesson).

 

[Shadenuat]

You did dissect the McGuffin.

Antithesis to Fallout 1.

I dunno, was that a decision developers made on purpose?

 

[Roguey]

You certainly do love to use phrases like "...isn't a bad thing" and "...is a good thing" without justifying or elaborating on your statements in any way.

The things I say are self-evident.

The water chip and the G.E.C.K. were pure MacGuffins, nothing but fluff for what would be labeled on a tabletop game board as START and FINISH (and in the case of Fallout 1, an hourglass). If people are so intensely stupid that they need MacGuffins in order to chart a course through the game, then I can only assume that they're fresh from the Angry Birds Academy of You're Totally a Real Gamer Now.

When you're dropped into a game you should be given a goal. Being dropped into a large world with no instructions? Terrible. Good old Warren Spector agrees:

Players must always have clear goals. Though free to stray from the storyline at will, players must know what they're supposed to be doing, minute to minute and, if appropriate, mission to mission. The fun of the game is in overcoming obstacles and solving problems; the fun is in how you solve a problem, not in guessing what problem you're supposed to solve.

(under story)

...most people respond to challenge with frustration and assume that something is impossible if it's at all difficult.

I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means. Whenever Josh uses the phrase "most people," it usually means he's leaning towards a design decision.

I already said he's taking the "find the water chip" approach. If people want to play Eternity out of its suggested order, tough. It's not like he patched the deathclaws and cazadores north of Goodsprings even though he totally could have.

I agree - that entire quote appears to be out of context. Or maybe it was just poorly thought out.

Roguey, post source

He posted it in notYCS which requires registration for viewing. That's what he wrote in its entirety and he was responding to

that "feel" is probably the thing i miss the most about modern AAA games, its just financially impossible to NOT make a game with super obvious breadcrumbs and/or a "cinematic experience" where you're carefully funneled through a completely predetermined theme park course and all you as the player have to do is push some buttons and enjoy the view. everything has to be "accessible" and appeal to a wide audience because if its not you go bankrupt.

its probably too much to hope for that project eternity will attempt the same sort of radical directionlessness (at least initially, before you as the player get a grip on what's smart and whats not) that those oldies had but kickstarter and crowdsourcing is honestly the only way to save gaming.

 

[Blaine]

The things I say are self-evident.

To you, and in your opinion, perhaps—also, case in point.

Players must always have clear goals. Though free to stray from the storyline at will, players must know what they're supposed to be doing, minute to minute and, if appropriate, mission to mission.

Players can set their own goals. They needn't be dictated to each step of the way.

 

[DraQ]

Morrowind is about hitting stuff with one single attack, Health Absorption and 5+5+1. If anything, these two games are equally majestic in their simulation approach and amount of possibilites, and equally derp when it comes to balance. There's a reason if I'll be asked "what is most interesting magic system" I'd name Morrowind and Arcanum out of my head, but then cough bashfully and start reasoning how you need to look past the balance and bugs at the bigger picture and blah blah blah...

What part of "systemically" did you not get?

Encounter design and balance may be shit in Morrowind, but basic mechanics is mostly sound.
(And 5+5+1 isn't part of combat mechanics in any sense of this word)

OTOH Arcanum is systemically broken, how guns work, how thrown explosives work, nearly everything is shit.

That's true. I definitely appreciated the lack of kiting. Although, I, while I agree that melee enemies should be able to close the distance to a gunfighter eventually (otherwise gunslinger enemies would be a shitshow), it seems like it happens much faster than 1-2 rounds unless they are engaged with your companions. In my experience, its less than a round - they will be able to reach you and attack at least once in a single round unless you initiate combat by taking the first shot at maximum range.

Reload mechanics. There you have your lack of kiting.

You can't run and shoot at the same time, you can't run and reload at the same time. Make reload times of many weapons, especially flintlock *drastic* (up the damage to awesome levels to compensate) and it's more of a question who you shoot (not first, at all) before being forced into melee, unless you have mechanized rifle or at least revolver, but then you may miss or enemy may throw more bodies at you.

It would also make cover and obstacles absolutely crucial for both melee and ranged attacks - for melee, because you'd want cover to not get shot, for ranged, because you'd want attackers to be forced to take most indirect route through open terrain where you can just take potshots.

 

[Shadenuat]

What part of "systemically" did you not get?

Not sure what are you judging here. Are you trying to say that in Morrowind, your expectations of your character's performance are better met than in Arcanum? I'm not sure how can we judge as something in Morrowind is better than in Arcanum if guns and explosives only exist in the latter.

(Why the hell Morrowind of all things? Because DraQ's favorite gaem? You want to dump shit on Arcanum combat, just compare it to Fallout or Fallout Tactics which also had TB and Real-time but everything worked more smooth there and actually was fun at some points).

 

[DraQ]

What part of "systemically" did you not get?

Not sure what are you judging here. Are you trying to say that in Morrowind, your expectations of your character's performance are better met than in Arcanum? I'm not sure how can we judge as something in Morrowind is better than in Arcanum if guns and explosives only exist in the latter.

So?

Broken is broken and they form an indispensable part of Arcanum combat system due to being indispensable part of its universe.

Morrowind could be repaired easily without scrapping half of its mechanics.
Arcanum could not.

Why the hell Morrowind of all things?

How the fuck am I supposed to know? I'm not the one who started TES combat comparisons.

 

[Shadenuat]

Your favorite explosives actually cost AP to throw with Drog's patch, you know.

Morrowind could be repaired easily without scrapping half of its mechanics.
Arcanum could not.

That we would never know because noone really tried, and because modding communities are so different for these games... like, one actually exists, while other... well, you know.

I'm not the one who started TES combat comparisons.

Oh, right. That was the other dude. But you did carry it on.

We should probably give it a rest then.

 

[DraQ]

Morrowind could be repaired easily without scrapping half of its mechanics.
Arcanum could not.

That we would never know because noone really tried

We do know, however, that there seems to be nothing resembling reloads in Arcanum's mechanics that could be used to implement reloads, or that RT/TB switch doesn't work too well.

I don't think you can show me a part of MW combat that is either missing or broken beyond simple fiddling with GMSTs.

 

[sea]

It's worth noting that "find the MacGuffin" plots work so well for open-ended RPGs because the plot progress is more or less contingent upon retrieving the item and little else. That is, you win by picking up the item and/or bringing it to its destination. That's it. You summarily have free reign to play the game as you see fit. Kill everyone in the world? No problem, you can still get that item. Want to avoid talking to all NPCs? If you can work out where the item is, it's yours. In an open-ended RPG system it's possibly the only route you can take to ensure the player can win the game under most/all circumstances, without railroading him/her along a preset plot path and putting obvious limitations on what you can and can't do. Treating it as a weakness in Fallout is thus rather silly, in my opinion.

 

[aris]

I don't think you can show me a part of MW combat that is either missing or broken beyond simple fiddling with GMSTs.

The fact that you never feel that you are hitting something in MW combat, because the weapons pretty much went straight through them with zero impact, the ridicolous way the weapons are held and swinged, making you feel like you're carrying plastic weapons rather than mighty steel weapons, or the fact that your advessary never showed any sign of injuries, despite taking several fatal blows, before they suddenly go from completely fine to completely dead in a millisecond? I'd like to see someone fix that in morrowind with simple fiddling of the GMST.

 

[deuxhero]

Morrowind's weapons had more impact than Oblivion and Skyrim's though: HP bloat was lower and getting knocked down from a strong blow was a very real thing.

 

[aris]

Morrowind's weapons had more impact than Oblivion and Skyrim's though

What? If there's one thing that Skyrim has really improved over morrowind, it's exactly this. That morrowind had more weapon impact (it had zero!), than skyrim is categorally false. Hell it's not by any means perfect, but at least it's easier to suspend your disbelief and feel that you are in an actual melee fight than when you watch your self stand completely still before an advesary and waiving in the air with a long sword like it was some kind of feather duster until your advesary suddenly lies down and dies.

nuff' said

 

[deuxhero]

Like I said: Morrowind didn't have HP bloat, or if it did and the power curve was so broken you never noticed it. As long as you fully pull back your swings in Morrowind, everything you are able to kill will die in 3 hits, and the first or second will knock them down.

 

[aris]

Maybe, but I was talking purely about how combat was implemented in MW, and in this game it just does not feel, unless you have a suspension of disbelief of more than 9000, that you are in an actual fight.

 

[tuluse]

I really don't see what's wrong with a find the water chip/GECK style of plot for an open world game. It gives the player a clear motivation to go places. It lets the designers place clues about what order to visit places without forcing anything upon the player. Just giving an open world where the character has no motivation to do anything seems boring to me.

 

[Roguey]

The things I say are self-evident.

To you, and in your opinion, perhaps—also, case in point.

I'm the only thing that's real.

Players must always have clear goals. Though free to stray from the storyline at will, players must know what they're supposed to be doing, minute to minute and, if appropriate, mission to mission.

Players can set their own goals. They needn't be dictated to each step of the way.

I'd be surprised if there was a single pro game designer around who would agree with that statement. Even your precious Wasteland 2 has clear goals, judging from that 17 minute video. Heck, even the original Wasteland gave you goals; not actually in the game itself but the manual (required reading of course):

Wasteland is a post-nuclear holocaust adventure. Your party, the famed Desert Rangers, have been assigned to investigate a series of disturbances in the desert. After several strategy meetings, you’ve decided to search for clues in Highpool, the Agricultural Center, and the Rail Nomads’ Camp, all of which are located to the west of Ranger Center.

See? Goals. No "create your characters then figure out where you're supposed to go on your own" there.

 

[Blaine]

I'd be surprised if there was a single pro game designer around who would agree with that statement.

Then you'd be surprised. Like yours, my statements are self-evident and are true simply because I made them, so I'll leave it at that.

Even your precious Wasteland 2 has clear goals....

Yes, I'm looking forward to Wasteland 2. Yes, Wasteland 2 will have a set of goals to follow. I've also greatly enjoyed other games in which there are no goals except those set by the player, so I'm not sure why this should sway me to your side of the argument.

 

[SCO]

And the G.E.C.K. then quickly gets de-romanticized into nothing but a bunch of field chemicals and collection of random seeds - another purely utilitarian item marketed in pre-war magazines as some wonder, the same magazines people now use to clean their asses with. But the protagonist, being rat-eating tribal he is, is till obsessed with it's "magic" (not very logical for someone with 200% Science of course).

Oh yeah, i remember that fallout 2, where everything made scientific sense, and was cynical about technology, and no magical trope thinking of SCIENCE at all.
Nope. I remember magic tank armour, talking rats and nuclear cars.

 

[DraQ]

Morrowind's weapons had more impact than Oblivion and Skyrim's though

What? If there's one thing that Skyrim has really improved over morrowind, it's exactly this. That morrowind had more weapon impact (it had zero!), than skyrim is categorally false. nuff' said

Let's compare, shall we?


So ok, Morrowind has horribly awkward animations and sounds (well duh).
I would actually recommend turning the sounds off in both vids to concentrate on visuals better.
Morrowind also has traditional to-hit mechanics rolling in the background, which looks rather silly without animations for dodging and parrying.
However, see that part where enemies react convincingly, or at all to being hit in Skyrim? No?
Well, that's because they don't.

Missing blows may go through enemies like through air in Morrowind, but in Skyrim and derpblivion it's hits that connect and draw blood that behave in exact same way - the enemies just don't give a fuck when you stab them in the face, shoot them or set them aflame, unless the hit either downs them or makes the game cinejaculate an awesome cutsecene in which your character murders them horribly with currently equipped weapon (to be fair, the enemies can cutscene you dead as well).

In Morrowind they at least had decency to get staggered after nearly every hit, sometimes even getting knocked to the ground (I'm speaking of knockdown, not KO due to lack of stamina). They also typically had decency to drop after relatively few connecting hits (and so did you, on higher difficulties), at least if you bothered to make full swings.

gaudaost speaking out of his ass? How very surprising.

 

[deuxhero]

Did we ever learn what Obsidian wanted a flash expert for? At the time I assumed it was for cutscenes (western animation in flash is becoming increasingly common), but South Park's in-engine (which would have been the most likely canidate, being a show done in flash) is identical to the show so I doubt they would go through the trouble of Flash.

 

[Shadenuat]

And the G.E.C.K. then quickly gets de-romanticized into nothing but a bunch of field chemicals and collection of random seeds - another purely utilitarian item marketed in pre-war magazines as some wonder, the same magazines people now use to clean their asses with. But the protagonist, being rat-eating tribal he is, is till obsessed with it's "magic" (not very logical for someone with 200% Science of course).

Oh yeah, i remember that fallout 2, where everything made scientific sense, and was cynical about technology, and no magical trope thinking of SCIENCE at all.
Nope. I remember magic tank armour, talking rats and nuclear cars.

I have no idea what are you getting at. What I pointed out is that Chosen One could know what coherent beams of light are or how drugs were manufactured pre-war and go all science talk, but on other occasions he would be completely clueless.

 

[Taxnomore]

Yeah, players totally need to have a goal set in stone by the game designer. Hence Minecraft's and The Sims success.

 

[aris]

Morrowind's weapons had more impact than Oblivion and Skyrim's though

What? If there's one thing that Skyrim has really improved over morrowind, it's exactly this. That morrowind had more weapon impact (it had zero!), than skyrim is categorally false. nuff' said

Let's compare, shall we?


So ok, Morrowind has horribly awkward animations and sounds (well duh).
I would actually recommend turning the sounds off in both vids to concentrate on visuals better.
Morrowind also has traditional to-hit mechanics rolling in the background, which looks rather silly without animations for dodging and parrying.
However, see that part where enemies react convincingly, or at all to being hit in Skyrim? No?
Well, that's because they don't.

Missing blows may go through enemies like through air in Morrowind, but in Skyrim and derpblivion it's hits that connect and draw blood that behave in exact same way - the enemies just don't give a fuck when you stab them in the face, shoot them or set them aflame, unless the hit either downs them or makes the game cinejaculate an awesome cutsecene in which your character murders them horribly with currently equipped weapon (to be fair, the enemies can cutscene you dead as well).

In Morrowind they at least had decency to get staggered after nearly every hit, sometimes even getting knocked to the ground (I'm speaking of knockdown, not KO due to lack of stamina). They also typically had decency to drop after relatively few connecting hits (and so did you, on higher difficulties), at least if you bothered to make full swings.

gaudaost speaking out of his ass? How very surprising.

Not only does the missing blows go through the air, also the hits do. If you look at the video, you can see him waiving his axe in the air in a ridicolous way in the exact same way whether it hits or not, with not one of the hits actually connecting physically. You just see a general effect and hear a sound when the game decides that your blow connects. I didn't say that skyrim had good combat implementation, I said that it had better, when you weild a long sword, it feels like and swings like you are weilding a long sword, not a dagger made out of rubber. You are absolutely correct that enemies do not act in a convincing way when they get hit, so there is definitely room for improvement, and yes, you have the extremely derpy and annoying kill animations. But at least they act somewhat convincingly near death, unlike morrowind where they go from 100% healthy to 100% dead in one hit. Also, I really can't see how HP is more bloated in skyrim than in morrowind. If you look at the video, it takes a shit tons of hits to down him. A combat like morrowind's would be ok were it a isometric top down RPG, but as it is FP, it is really difficult to suspend your disbelief in a game that derives it quality from exactly this; suspending your disbelief by drawing you into its fictional world.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, players totally need to have a goal set in stone by the game designer. Hence Minecraft's and The Sims success.

Minecraft was one well-known example I had in mind, and there are numerous others—such as nearly the entire 4x genre, unless "to win" constitutes a goal now—but they'd be lost on Roguey. The "pro game designers" (and more importantly, Josh Sawyer) from whom he sponges all of his opinions have spoken; you might just as well argue politics with a Fox News enthusiast or debate egalitarianism with a feminist.