Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[hoverdog]

Dumpster diving. /single tear of nostalgia

Give me ToEE combat in Arcanum and I will stick one thing of your choosing in one orifice of your choosing.

I would dive into all of potatoland's dumpsters just to see this.

 

[Shadenuat]

However, the range advantage is negligible.

You need decent PER, marskmanship and decent long-range weapon for range advantage to take an effect.

 

[Comrade Goby]

I just used cheatengine to give me high stats to get through combat.

I went with a gunslinger first playthorugh and got so pissed in that mountain that things were so fucked.

I tried magic and say that it raped everything.

 

[suejak]

It's not that big a deal. There are ways to deal with everything. Arcanum combat is bad for a number of reasons, but there are interesting solutions to every broken situation.

 

[Lancehead]

If you suck out someone's soul, do they become brain dead or do they still keep their intelligence, personality, motivations, instincts, etc., but feels there's "something" missing?
Ziets: My sense is that the soul is effectively the animating life force. So if a person’s soul was sucked out, they would be brain dead... or possibly dead dead. Note that the physics of souls are still not finalized (and therefore subject to change), but this is my current understanding of how it will work.

 

[Shadenuat]

If soul is life force, then using soul based abilities and spells should drain that, not per-day counters.

 

[Lancehead]

Why? Using Soul-based abilities doesn't necessarily mean draining the Soul. If there are such abilities, then sure, health should be drained.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

However, the range advantage is negligible.

You need decent PER, marskmanship and decent long-range weapon for range advantage to take an effect.

My point wasn't that guns weren't working as ranged weapons, it was that AP pools are generally high enough that enemies will close the distance rapidly. Once they get in close, their higher AP pool means moving away is just giving them free hits. In other words, the range advantage is AP you don't need to use on movement. But this isn't an advantage when melee characters have more AP to use on movement.

Plus, encounter design is such that a large portion of combat starts when you are about five steps away. B/c of the aforementioned AP pool issues, this means setting up at range is not really on the cards.

 

[CappenVarra]

However, the range advantage is negligible.

You need decent PER, marskmanship and decent long-range weapon for range advantage to take an effect.

My point wasn't that guns weren't working as ranged weapons, it was that AP pools are generally high enough that enemies will close the distance rapidly. Once they get in close, their higher AP pool means moving away is just giving them free hits. In other words, the range advantage is AP you don't need to use on movement. But this isn't an advantage when melee characters have more AP to use on movement.

Plus, encounter design is such that a large portion of combat starts when you are about five steps away. B/c of the aforementioned AP pool issues, this means setting up at range is not really on the cards.

Yes, drastically reducing the hex/AP movement rate would be a necessary fix to the combat... But so would about a hundred other things. So the problem is not that AP pools are too high, but that the movement rate per AP is off the scale (even the slowest enemies will close most distances in one turn).

Second, it is possible to reach 1 attack / AP with both guns and melee weapons, you just need high DEX and specific weapons (char build and items affecting things in cRPGs? :shock: ).

Third (reply aimed more to DraQ than you), combat is Arcanum is sadly on about the same level as TES games - it's almost never about "damn, how do I get through this encounter using tactics based on this character", but more about "how will I trivialize all combat in the game with this character?". Even the kamikaze wildlife and the fact that just about any early-mid-game character can trivialize it are similar to Morrowind (not to mention several story points concerning the protagonist and the main villain, the unreliable narrators in game books and the focus on background world building, the generalized systems for things like NPC reaction that practically break themselves, idiotic AI etc.). If anything, Arcanum does a better job about occasionally challenging even higher-level characters (with golems, fire elementals, brute fangs perhaps) than Morrowind. Yes, it fucks up gun simulation, but only disciples of the church of holy simulation most detailed will find this to be the biggest flaw...

 

[Shadenuat]

My point wasn't that guns weren't working as ranged weapons, it was that AP pools are generally high enough that enemies will close the distance rapidly.

AP and weapon speeds in Arcanum are fucked up. But I don't think melee characters should't have a boost to movement, otherwise you'd be able to just kite them (like Gekos in Fallout if you have 10 AP). Generally in Arcanum, with Looking Glass Rifle/Pistol, you can handle an encounter in 1-2 rounds until enemies come to you. Seems fair enough that enemies can close in rapidly and kill shooter in bayonet fight if he's slacking. As for encounters, it's mostly fair only for random encounters. They always were a bit off even if Fallout. Arcanum could use Survival skill, or Stealth check for random encounters.

Yes, drastically reducing the hex/AP movement rate would be a necessary fix to the combat... But so would about a hundred other things

Balancing combat with swords, bows, chakrams, guns, grenades and all schools of magic without going all Sawyer on it and cutting half of content is something only a miracle can do.

 

[Lord Andre]

I have a theory about combat in Arcanum. I think the weapons, especially guns, were balanced for real-time play. Turn-based was added very late in the game and very sloppy.
Best example are the dragon like monsters - in real time they walk incredibly slow but in turn based they have like 20 AP. So, in turn based, you fire a round's worth of gunshots and then they are already near you in melee. In real-time they walk so slow that you fire about 6 rounds worth of gunshots before they reach you.
Also, some of the guns that should be really fast (and are described as such) are just about as slow as a good revolver in turn based, but in real time they are visibly faster.

So, my theory is that they had balanced item stats based on real-time then added AP cost much later. Also, monsters were initially given high dexterity so they can dodge and have good armor but speed was a different stat altogether. After they added turn based and decided that dexterity equals speed this affected the monster speed as well creating situations like the dragon monster example above.

 

[Arkeus]

I have a theory about combat in Arcanum. I think the weapons, especially guns, were balanced for real-time play. Turn-based was added very late in the game and very sloppy.
Best example are the dragon like monsters - in real time they walk incredibly slow but in turn based they have like 20 AP. So, in turn based, you fire a round's worth of gunshots and then they are already near you in melee. In real-time they walk so slow that you fire about 6 rounds worth of gunshots before they reach you.
Also, some of the guns that should be really fast (and are described as such) are just about as slow as a good revolver in turn based, but in real time they are visibly faster.

So, my theory is that they had balanced item stats based on real-time then added AP cost much later. Also, monsters were initially given high dexterity so they can dodge and have good armor but speed was a different stat altogether. After they added turn based and decided that dexterity equals speed this affected the monster speed as well creating situations like the dragon monster example above.

 

[DraQ]

Third (reply aimed more to DraQ than you), combat is Arcanum is sadly on about the same level as TES games - it's almost never about "damn, how do I get through this encounter using tactics based on this character", but more about "how will I trivialize all combat in the game with this character?".

The difference is that while clunky, TES combat (Morrowind, at least) isn't broken on systemic level.

The system is sound - skills, attributes, damage reduction curve, the way they interact in combat, it's only that game lacks good AI and well designed (mechanically) enemies.
Of course, there is room for improvement - different physical damage types, removing spurious to-hit roll from ranged weapons and replacing it with fire cone mechanics, etc, but the system itself works pretty well.

OTOH arcanum's combat system is just clusterfuck of bafflingly bad design, most of it explicitly put in game for some reason, rather than unintended consequences of mechanics durping up - the only good thing about it I can think of is non-lethal damage.

Ok, using stuff in inventory-time is bad in Morrowind, but at least you can't use it to spam enemies to death with grenades, and it wouldn't be much of a balance problem if potions were heavier or inventory didn't pause the game.

Yes, it fucks up gun simulation, but only disciples of the church of holy simulation most detailed will find this to be the biggest flaw...

It's a setting built around Sword & Sorcery VS Guns thematic axis axis - OF COURSE it's a massive flaw regardless of how much of a simulationist you are.

 

[Roguey]

I have a theory about combat in Arcanum. I think the weapons, especially guns, were balanced for real-time play. Turn-based was added very late in the game and very sloppy.

You would be mistaken, turn-based came first then they added realtime though both options were there pretty early.
http://o.rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/interviews/arcanum2a.shtml
October 26, 1999

Jonric: Arcanum is reported to offer both real-time and turn-based combat. Why did you decide on this?

Tim: There seem to be two irreconcilable camps of RPG players. The real-time players like the fast-paced action, while the turn-based players like the strategy and the separation of the player's skill from the character's. Even on our own team, we have people who will probably only play in one mode. So we decided to make the game playable both ways.

Leonard: We wanted the fast pace you could get from a real time game, but we loved the feel we got out of turn based combat in Fallout, so we just decided to include both. I could see quite a bit of switching back and forth, actually - I don't want the tedium of killing a hundred rats in turn based combat, but on the other hand, I might want a chance to stop and strategize against an extremely tough opponent.

Jason: One of the biggest complaints we received on Fallout was that it was turn-based. I know people who bought Fallout and didn't even make it out of the rat cave before they gave up and shelved the game, because they felt it was too slow. Another reason to have real-time combat is that Arcanum will have a multi-player aspect, and turn-based combat does not lend itself well to computer multi-player gaming.

However, we wanted to have turn-based combat available as an option, for those players who prefer to have more control over their characters in combat situations. Turn-based allows a player to be more thoughtful and strategic when in combat. Turn-based is also helpful to people who want to play a high dexterity character, but aren't super fast at clicking the mouse themselves.

Jonric: Very interesting. And how will the combat system actually work?

Tim: Basically, your Dexterity stat determines your Speed derived stat. In real-time play, the Speed stat determines how fast your character can perform actions. The higher the stat, the faster you can do things; we literally adjust the frame rate on your animation. In turn-based play, the Speed stat determines how many action points you have to spend in one turn, and every action costs a predetermined number of points.

Other factors can affect character speed in both modes. For example, weapons have speed factors, making a sword faster than an axe, for instance. The nice thing about this system is it is consistent, so fast characters are faster in either mode than slow characters. And the player can switch modes during play, so you can experiment with which mode you like best.

Jonric: What are the major difficulties in having both, and how are you going to overcome them?

Tim: The hardest part of having two combat modes is balancing two combat systems, both of which rely on the same underlying stats. By basing both systems on character Speed, I think we have avoided a lot of issues that might have arisen..

Troika was fine at the chose-your-own-adventure parts of RPGs, utterly failed when it came to actual rules. Should have had a Josh Sawyer.

 

[imweasel]

Troika was fine at the chose-your-own-adventure parts of RPGs, utterly failed when it came to actual rules. Should have had a Josh Sawyer.

Because Josh is great at low level design, right? Like in... uh.... that... um.... in that game where he, uh, designed the mechanics... um... oh god. fuck (can't remember the name of the game). Yeah, that game was awesome!

 

[Lord Andre]

I have a theory about combat in Arcanum. I think the weapons, especially guns, were balanced for real-time play. Turn-based was added very late in the game and very sloppy.

You would be mistaken, turn-based came first then they added realtime though both options were there pretty early.
http://o.rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/interviews/arcanum2a.shtml
Troika was fine at the chose-your-own-adventure parts of RPGs, utterly failed when it came to actual rules. Should have had a Josh Sawyer.

Roguey, this is gonna blow your mind. Are you ready ? Listen carefully:

PEOPLE LIE. ALL THE TIME.

Your mind, it is blown.

So, I am not impressed by dev quotes and dev interviews. I am more impressed by facts and logic.

Oh, and Sawyer is the poor man's Kevin Saunders.

 

[Shadenuat]

The difference is that while clunky, TES combat (Morrowind, at least) isn't broken on systemic level.

Morrowind is about hitting stuff with one single attack, Health Absorption and 5+5+1. If anything, these two games are equally majestic in their simulation approach and amount of possibilites, and equally derp when it comes to balance. There's a reason if I'll be asked "what is most interesting magic system" I'd name Morrowind and Arcanum out of my head, but then cough bashfully and start reasoning how you need to look past the balance and bugs at the bigger picture and blah blah blah...
Comparing TES to Arcanum is absolutely pointless anyway.

Because Josh is great at low level design, right? Like in... uh.... that... um.... in that game where he, uh, designed the mechanics...

F:NV.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Because Josh is great at low level design, right? Like in... uh.... that... um.... in that game where he, uh, designed the mechanics...

F:NV.

I thought that was Bethesda.

 

[imweasel]

Yeah, Beths (Todd Howard) did the low level design. Sawyer only did high level design for F:NV.

 

[Captain Shrek]

The difference is that while clunky, TES combat (Morrowind, at least) isn't broken on systemic level.

Morrowind is about hitting stuff with one single attack, Health Absorption and 5+5+1. If anything, these two games are equally majestic in their simulation approach and amount of possibilites, and equally derp when it comes to balance. There's a reason if I'll be asked "what is most interesting magic system" I'd name Morrowind and Arcanum out of my head, but then cough bashfully and start reasoning how you need to look past the balance and bugs at the bigger picture and blah blah blah...
Comparing TES to Arcanum is absolutely pointless anyway.

Because Josh is great at low level design, right? Like in... uh.... that... um.... in that game where he, uh, designed the mechanics...

F:NV.

Great.

Someone actually cares about Mechanics of Morrowind.

 

[Shadenuat]

Yeah, Beths (Todd Howard) did the low level design. Sawyer only did high level design for F:NV.

I'm not sure that abomination even had any kind of "design" before Obsidian turned it into playable RPG.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Yes, drastically reducing the hex/AP movement rate would be a necessary fix to the combat... But so would about a hundred other things. So the problem is not that AP pools are too high, but that the movement rate per AP is off the scale (even the slowest enemies will close most distances in one turn).

I would agree to that. I was conflating the excessive movement into the AP pool question - a higher AP cost for movement might be the better solution.

Second, it is possible to reach 1 attack / AP with both guns and melee weapons, you just need high DEX and specific weapons (char build and items affecting things in cRPGs? :shock: ).

Definitely true, but it seems like that requires a bit of metagaming to pull of well. Plus an integral part of the fun of being a gunslinger is the crafting, which can impose a fairly high intelligence cost as well. But don't get me started on the stat system,

AP and weapon speeds in Arcanum are fucked up. But I don't think melee characters should't have a boost to movement, otherwise you'd be able to just kite them (like Gekos in Fallout if you have 10 AP). Generally in Arcanum, with Looking Glass Rifle/Pistol, you can handle an encounter in 1-2 rounds until enemies come to you. Seems fair enough that enemies can close in rapidly and kill shooter in bayonet fight if he's slacking. As for encounters, it's mostly fair only for random encounters. They always were a bit off even if Fallout. Arcanum could use Survival skill, or Stealth check for random encounters.

That's true. I definitely appreciated the lack of kiting. Although, I, while I agree that melee enemies should be able to close the distance to a gunfighter eventually (otherwise gunslinger enemies would be a shitshow), it seems like it happens much faster than 1-2 rounds unless they are engaged with your companions. In my experience, its less than a round - they will be able to reach you and attack at least once in a single round unless you initiate combat by taking the first shot at maximum range.

 

[BobtheTree]

Seems MCA is having some recording issues with Arcanum.

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/301059064442535937

 

[Rake]

Seems MCA is having some recording issues with Arcanum.

https://twitter.com/ChrisAvellone/status/301059064442535937

Obsidian=Technical problems

he said he plays vanilla. Good luck with that. He will need it

 

[Arkeus]

Ok, apparently people have already received their Questionnaires about the rewards a long time ago? Checking if i need to raise a comlaint/question through Kickstarter.