Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Ok, apparently people have already received their Questionnaires about the rewards a long time ago? Checking if i need to raise a comlaint/question through Kickstarter.

Only for high-tier rewards, AFAIK.

 

[MisterStone]

All of this bitching about backstab and rogues in combat is pretty much why class-based systems are kind of retarded from a purely tactical simulationist standpoint.

BTW is there an easy way to get a full list of features and design decisions about this game? I did not follow this thread of the dev blogs because I'm not emotionally attached to Sawyer the way some people are and there was just too much shit flying around to try to read this thread.

 

[Roguey]

PEOPLE LIE. ALL THE TIME.

In an interview released literally weeks after the game was announced. Years before release.
...
.........................................

Yeah, Beths (Todd Howard) did the low level design. Sawyer only did high level design for F:NV.

"I implemented and tuned all of the weapons, designed the perks, all of the system and combat design modifications,"

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/425502857530199907

We have not heard from tim cain in a while. What has he been up to PE wise?

Tim has been working on some of the basic abilities for the "non-core" classes as well as spell lists. Most of the initial work we did was on "classics" that people might expect when coming to a class. If you play a barbarian, you're probably going to expect to have some sort of rage-y ability. If you play a wizard, you're probably going to expect something resembling a magic missile. There don't need to be a ton of these things and they don't need to mechanically ape D&D, but we want them to be familiar enough to help orient a player at the start of the game.

We've started working on the more PE-world-specific class abilities and spells with other designers (e.g. Avellone and Fenstermaker) contributing ideas.

 

[Lord Andre]

PEOPLE LIE. ALL THE TIME.

In an interview released literally weeks after the game was announced. Years before release.

Yes. I will tell you what I see when I read that interview.

- Tim Cain didn't care about the TB vs RT issue. He addressed it because it was a hot topic but he had no personal stake in it. It was actually annoying him.
- That means he didn't want to micro-manage the implementation because he was more interesting in doing other parts of the game.
- That means he drew a rough sketch about how he wanted TB and RT implemented (described in the interview) BUT delegated the actual numbers & math part, to a team of lackeys.
- This team of lackeys began "inventing" numbers for the system. Even though both TB and RT were in, they had to start somewhere, after all you can't do two things at the same time.
- This team of lackeys was more familiar with Diablo than with Fallout so they started making up numbers for the RT system first.
- When the RT part was done, they had to implement the TB. The TB didn't fit quite as good as they thought it would, but by now enthusiasm and patience were getting low so they tacked the TB on as best they could and rushed to finish the job.
- The next day, Tim Cain came to see their work and they showed him a working demo of the implementation. At a glance it must have seen ok, so it passed his inspection.
- Since they rushed the game out, proper quality testing was not done.
- And that's the story of Arcanum's bad combat.

 

[Roguey]

PEOPLE LIE. ALL THE TIME.

In an interview released literally weeks after the game was announced. Years before release.

Yes. I will tell you what I see when I read that interview.

You're an ignorant idiot who is literally just making shit up god just shut the fuck up.
http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/profiles/
http://rpgvaultarchive.ign.com/features/profiles/tcain.shtml

I am a programmer, scripter, designer and tester for the game. I am mostly responsible for things like AI, combat, skills, interfaces and such. I like to figure out how things should work in the game, and then write code for those ideas, and then see how the game feels afterwards. I often delete my code.

 

[Lord Andre]

...

1. My theories are just that - theories.
2. Insulting me doesn't prove shit.
3. According to your own sources, Tim Cain and Jason Anderson were both partially responsible for combat.
4. I don't see anything in your quotes that disproves my theory that RT was balanced first and TB was put in second.
5. Chillax.

 

[Roguey]

It's only a theory if it's tested. What you have is a made-up bullshit hypothesis.

 

[Lord Andre]

It's only a theory if it's tested. What you have is a made-up bullshit hypothesis.

Sure, whatever. Let's get back to Project Eternity.
Now, in my next made-up bullshit hypothesis I will prove beyond a doubt, that Kevin Saunders is 10x better than Josh Sawyer.

Exhibit 1: their pictures

Kevin looks like a decent man who would probably help you move if you ask him.

Sawyer looks like a douche bag who can't be bothered to shave in the winter because the beard keeps him warm when he rides his bike. Apparently hipsters can't into scarves.

 

[~RAGING BONER~]

It's only a theory if it's tested. What you have is a made-up bullshit hypothesis.

Sure, whatever. Let's get back to Project Eternity.
Now, in my next made-up bullshit hypothesis I will prove beyond a doubt, that Kevin Saunders is 10x better than Josh Sawyer.

Exhibit 1: their pictures

Kevin looks like a decent man who would probably help you move if you ask him.

Sawyer looks like a douche bag who can't be bothered to shave in the winter because the beard keeps him warm when he rides his bike. Apparently hipsters can't into scarves.

Here:

You can name it Kevin.

 

[Lord Andre]

Shit, I got burned. Well played sir, well played.

 

[Ulminati]

Username appropriate to content.

 

[Jaedar]

Good to see Fenstermaker is on the PE team, he seems like a good designer.

 

[Mastermind]

It's only a theory if it's tested. What you have is a made-up bullshit hypothesis.

Now now, it's improper for a young lady to use this kind of language.

 

[Harold]

Good to see Fenstermaker is on the PE team, he seems like a good designer.

Yep, as far as I'm concerned Ziets and Fenstermaker =
I wonder if that Gonzalez dude will also be on board

 

[Duraframe300]

I wonder if that Gonzalez dude will also be on board

Gonzalez left Obsidian after F:NV. He's currently working for WBGames on a unnanounced thing.

 

[Roguey]

Sawyer talking about player goals, funneling:

i think truly directionless games in the vein of most might & magics and wizardrys (and even darklands) are not fun. ultimately, even darklands' central plot was still more-or-less linear once you stumbled across a satanic village. the locations are randomized, but ultimately it's only going to follow one course. i think it's fine/good to tell the player "here is a thing you can/should do" on a central plot and let them figure out how to/how they want to get there. if they stumble into other quests or into random places along the way, great. ideally central quests are structured so you can do a lot of things out of order.

F:NV was one step removed from this because it had quest markers, but you could do a lot of things out of order. as is evidenced in the F:NV games thread, most people respond to challenge with frustration and assume that something is impossible if it's at all difficult.

I'm sure some of youse would love to take that first sentence out of context, but having clear goals isn't a bad thing. He's mentioned that Eternity's going the "find a water chip" route.

 

[Infinitron]

What is it with Sawyer and the phrase "fine/good"

 

[Blaine]

I'm sure some of youse would love to take that first sentence out of context, but having clear goals isn't a bad thing. He's mentioned that Eternity's going the "find a water chip" route.

You certainly do love to use phrases like "...isn't a bad thing" and "...is a good thing" without justifying or elaborating on your statements in any way.

The water chip and the G.E.C.K. were pure MacGuffins, nothing but fluff for what would be labeled on a tabletop game board as START and FINISH (and in the case of Fallout 1, an hourglass). If people are so intensely stupid that they need MacGuffins in order to chart a course through the game, then I can only assume that they're fresh from the Angry Birds Academy of You're Totally a Real Gamer Now.

...most people respond to challenge with frustration and assume that something is impossible if it's at all difficult.

I hope this doesn't mean what I think it means. Whenever Josh uses the phrase "most people," it usually means he's leaning towards a design decision.

 

[Infinitron]

most people respond to challenge with frustration and assume that something is impossible if it's at all difficult.

That sentence doesn't actually have anything to do with Josh's main point. He's just pointing out why they put in quest markers, in an AAA console game for the masses. Having "goals" isn't the same thing as having quest markers that tell you directly where those goals are.

 

[Blaine]

That sentence doesn't actually have anything to do with Josh's main point. He's just pointing out why they put in quest markers, in an AAA console game for the masses.

It really doesn't have any business being there at all. The trouble is that Josh minces words often so as to avoid insulting any portion of his company's player base, and has also often used "most people" reasoning to justify design decisions for Project: Eternity as well. I suppose one therefore must simply assume that, in this case, he's talking about the OTHER "most people"—fourteen-year-old console peasants, presumably—and not the "most people" that apparently only includes the Project: Eternity player base.

Having "goals" isn't the same thing as having quest markers that tell you directly where those goals are.

Of course not.

 

[Infinitron]

It really doesn't have any business being there at all. The trouble is that Josh minces words often so as to avoid insulting any portion of his company's player base, and has also often used "most people" reasoning to justify design decisions for Project: Eternity as well. I suppose one therefore must simply assume that, in this case, he's talking about the OTHER "most people"—fourteen-year-old console peasants, presumably—and not the "most people" that apparently only includes the Project: Eternity player base.

I agree - that entire quote appears to be out of context. Or maybe it was just poorly thought out.

Roguey, post source

 

[Shadenuat]

The water chip and the G.E.C.K. were pure MacGuffins, nothing but fluff for what would be labeled on a tabletop game board as START and FINISH (and in the case of Fallout 1, an hourglass). If people are so intensely stupid that they need MacGuffins in order to chart a course through the game

How can water chip be a MacGuffin if it's usefulness is perfectly explained and supported by game's main narrative?

 

[Shadenuat]

They were not. At least the Chip's use was even more realistic if not stupefying in that the Vault had only one of those

Who's "they"?

 

[Shadenuat]

Well I only asked about the water chip. It's use was clear, the theme of water was in the game - from drying fields to Hub who lived by it and Necropolis where you had to make a decision. Water chip and timer were good design decisions, not bad (I hope I don't need to go into detailed explanation why giving player a goal and time restriction to show how world is working without him/against him is better than random wandering in the wastes Bethesdard-style).