Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

the rogue is missing half of the key elements of the skirmisher - medium ranged harassment.

Why missing? Ranged weapon rogues are a common sight in CRPGs.

They were possible but I dunno if I'd say common. The mechanic of sneak attack or backstab motivates one to play the rogue as a melee character. In 3e you could ranged sneak attack, but IMO not even TOEE gave a good range indicator (or grid) to allow you to position for ranged sneak attacks.

Perhaps the mobility-springattack Rogue is closest to being a skirmisher, in behavior.

They're pretty common even in the most popamole games.

Take a look at Dragon Age - two rogue companions, with one clearly intended to be archery focused (Leliana) and the other stabbing focused (Zevran).

Not to mention Diablo's rogues.

 

[Blaine]

Nostalgia and "youth now-a-days"-mentality, bro.

I say we put kids in charge of "balancing" in that case.

You're right of course, but it's not just nostalgia. There are now millions of kids playing Runescape, World of Warcraft, LoL, and so on. In 1994, the number of kids playing MUDs or the few graphical MMORPGs available (The Realm Online and Neverwinter Nights?) was very small.

 

[sea]

I would say that, as always, the appeal of various classes over others in a pen & paper setting comes down mostly to role-playing and "coolness factor" and not stats. Most people who casually play videogames also take this approach - they aren't sitting there comparing potential damage output between 4 classes, they say "cleric? sounds lame, I wanna be the fighter" and that's it.

 

[Mangoose]

They're pretty common even in the most popamole games.

And yet they don't exist in BG, IWD, TOEE, KOTC. What's your point, anyway? Whether or not it is common, it is still an important topic to discuss, as while sometimes they are done right, there are still many instances of rogues too focused on only damage. Whether or not certain games have done it right, we don't know what is being planned for P:E.

Edit: I mean I guess we could say that P:E should have rogues that (are allowed to) play like the Diablo rogue or amazon, or Leiliana's close-ranged side of the archery tree.

 

[felipepepe]

Yeah, I first played AD&D as a Ranger cause he can dual-wield and that sounded RAD.

 

[Roguey]

Josh is obviously making rogues the best class as a favor to me. My depp-us is going to be so high.

Well you were talking about "principles that Codexers (among others) have known for well over a decade" yet they were willing to not-care about any hypothetical single-player-quality-loss of OS.

That's because I actually have a real life friend to co-op with, and I have co-oped with before.

What does that have to do with the problems Larian's going to have to deal with because they want to make a multiplayer game?

BTW multiplayer was a Divinity 2 feature for years until they ran out of money.

Oh Jesus, Roguey, sometimes I wonder if you really are trolling or just fucking blind. The problem isn't that you like Josh or the vision of P:E, but that you are completely unable to give any sort of criticism.

I criticize things I don't like all the time.

If you're just trolling, keep on at it. It's plain for all to see you cause near unlimited amounts of butthurt in some posters, and that's amusing I suppose. If you're serious with your persecution-complex though, then you gotta stop being one-dimensional. Either you're the butthurt-inducing troll who isn't taken too seriously by anyone except those that fall for the troll, or you're a legitimate poster. Can't have both.

When have I claimed to be persecuted?

You know who you remind me of? Black Cat.

2009-era BC-trolling was classic.

 

[Irenaeus]

Roguey, whatever you're doing, keep it up, please.

Yeah, I first played AD&D as a Ranger cause he can dual-wield and that sounded RAD.

I used to like the cleric in D&D when I was kid because he could fight AND throw spells.

 

[LeStryfe79]

Playing a ranged rogue was a pretty common choice in THIEF.

 

[Lancehead]

4th Edition would work for a cRPG because there wouldn't really be anything that bad about having the same mechanics for the whole party - you're playing all six characters so what do you care?

Uhm, I would care. Why would I want all my party members play the same?

 

[Sensuki]

Infinitron

... rogues ...
But I'm gonna stop now, because I am literally the only person interested in P:E who thinks that way.

Nope I am 100% with you, I said as much on the SA forums when I was arguing about 2E being my fav edition of D&D. I hate that Rogues have become the largest DPS dealing class which seems like an MMOism to me.

 

[Blaine]

I criticize things I don't like all the time.

The entire point Grunker was making is that you absolutely refuse to criticize things you do like.

"Why would I do that?", you may ask. Discovering the answer to that question will be a good first step on the path to broadening that narrow little mind of yours.

 

[wergle]

ITT people talk to Roguey as if he/she/it seriously considers things that other people say

edit: for 700 pages

 

[Grunker]

Roguey: What Blaine said. With you, there is terrible shit or true perfection. No middle-ground. You're like a parody of the Codex.

 

[Grunker]

These last two days I've given statements that support some of Sawyer's decisions and criticizes others. It's funny being brofisted by two sides

4th Edition would work for a cRPG because there wouldn't really be anything that bad about having the same mechanics for the whole party - you're playing all six characters so what do you care?

Uhm, I would care. Why would I want all my party members play the same?

They don't play the same, the have the same basic mechanics. And they're still more diverse than the class-differences in 80% of cRPGs

 

[Lancehead]

4th Edition would work for a cRPG because there wouldn't really be anything that bad about having the same mechanics for the whole party - you're playing all six characters so what do you care?

Uhm, I would care. Why would I want all my party members play the same?

They don't play the same, the have the same basic mechanics. And they're still more diverse than the class-differences in 80% of cRPGs

Then what is this:

Fundamentally, every class works in the same way and plays in the same way in 4th Edition.

?

Anyway, based on how you described classes work in that post, it does sound boring, cRPG or no.

 

[Grunker]

4th Edition would work for a cRPG because there wouldn't really be anything that bad about having the same mechanics for the whole party - you're playing all six characters so what do you care?

Uhm, I would care. Why would I want all my party members play the same?

They don't play the same, the have the same basic mechanics. And they're still more diverse than the class-differences in 80% of cRPGs

Then what is this:

Fundamentally, every class works in the same way and plays in the same way in 4th Edition.

?

Anyway, based on how you described classes work in that post, it does sound boring, cRPG or no.

Meh, it's a complicated discussion: Compared to other P&P systems, 4th Ed. characters play very similarly. But compared to most cRPG systems 4th Ed. is diverse as fuck. I've said as much many times before

 

[Roguey]

The entire point Grunker was making is that you absolutely refuse to criticize things you do like.

But I do...?

 

[Grunker]

The entire point Grunker was making is that you absolutely refuse to criticize things you do like.

But I do...?

You do...?

 

[Roguey]

Yes. Obviously I have to like something enough to play it to completion.

 

[Blaine]

Roguey
Tell me, what don't you like about Josh Sawyer and/or his methods and design philosophy? And I mean 2013 Josh Sawyer, not the early 2000s version that your feminist principles so easily allowed you to ridicule for being slightly overweight and "a loser".

 

[Roguey]

Roguey
Tell me, what don't you like about Josh Sawyer and/or his methods and design philosophy?

I have no complaints so far. My problems with New Vegas are mostly related to it being a Bethesda-engine game for Bethesda fans.

And I mean 2013 Josh Sawyer, not the early 2000s version that your feminist principles so easily allowed you to ridicule for being slightly overweight and "a loser".

Slightly overweight? He's 6'2 and when he graduated from college he was 265 lbs; by 2002 he was down to 235. That picture was taken in 2000. That's obese.

 

[Grunker]

he is pretty fucking fat in that picture blaine

 

[Blaine]

Typically when I think of a fat loser, I picture someone like Wally One-Arm or Airplane Allan.

 

[Brotherman Bill]

Yes. Obviously I have to like something enough to play it to completion.

Now now, that's not how the codex works

 

[Hormalakh]

The last few pages of this thread literally put me to sleep last night; it was that boring. Just saying...

I think the rogues are fine. When it comes to gameplay I think abstracted is always better than realism. When it comes to story, realism all the way.