Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Surf Solar]

You are all faggots.

And GUI can be pretty/ornate/artistic/whatever without taking up a lot of space and not using it.

That's the wrong question. The right question is "what kind of choice isn't helped by translating it into mathemathical problem?"

I'm not quite sure what you mean, because that seems to be the same thing I wrote. You translate the choice into mathematical problem as it is good for modeling shit and finding solutions. But with enough understanding of the gameplay mechanics I think that any gameplay choice can be translated into mathematical problem and depending on how well you translate it helps you in choosing the optimal solution.

Nope. There are problems that can't really be helped this way, because they don't have exact solutions that can be found in sensible amount of time.

For example you can see battle as tree of events branching from start with each possible outcome being a leaf. If the tree is large and branches a lot (that's one of the major points of random mechanics, BTW), you can't really explore it all and find optimal choices in those branching points that depend on your choices. All you can do is formulate your tactics as set of rules you use when navigating the tree, but it's mere heuristics, not an exact solution. Applying math doesn't help here. OTOH doing a lot of math on HPs, APs and whatever doesn't really make this tactical tree any more complex and tactical decisions more difficult. All it proves is that you can count at primary school level.

This looks horrible. Too many single elements cluttered all over the screen, like some shitty MMO, instead of a solid "bar" of UI.

 

[Delterius]

If there's one thing I know about UIs is that I hate them. I hate every single one of them. At which point I'd ask if they are planning for the sort of modularity InXile was promising.

 

[DraQ]

You are all faggots.

And GUI can be pretty/ornate/artistic/whatever without taking up a lot of space and not using it.

That's the wrong question. The right question is "what kind of choice isn't helped by translating it into mathemathical problem?"

I'm not quite sure what you mean, because that seems to be the same thing I wrote. You translate the choice into mathematical problem as it is good for modeling shit and finding solutions. But with enough understanding of the gameplay mechanics I think that any gameplay choice can be translated into mathematical problem and depending on how well you translate it helps you in choosing the optimal solution.

Nope. There are problems that can't really be helped this way, because they don't have exact solutions that can be found in sensible amount of time.

For example you can see battle as tree of events branching from start with each possible outcome being a leaf. If the tree is large and branches a lot (that's one of the major points of random mechanics, BTW), you can't really explore it all and find optimal choices in those branching points that depend on your choices. All you can do is formulate your tactics as set of rules you use when navigating the tree, but it's mere heuristics, not an exact solution. Applying math doesn't help here. OTOH doing a lot of math on HPs, APs and whatever doesn't really make this tactical tree any more complex and tactical decisions more difficult. All it proves is that you can count at primary school level.

This looks horrible. Too many single elements cluttered all over the screen, like some shitty MMO, instead of a solid "bar" of UI.

Unlike you I don't have fetish for solids.

Also, individual elements would hide when not in use unless set otherwise by user.
They would only pop up when and, in case of action menus, *where* needed.

Good interface:
1. Respects screen real estate.
2. Tries to minimize amount of distance travelled by cursor.

Lower and side menus would be reserved for stuff that should be in view, but rarely clicked on directly.
Individual action menus would pop out near portrait(s) selected first and mouse cursor second (if first criterion was ambiguous).
I wouldn't mind possible rearrangement of menus, for example to bring minimap closer to portraits - I've thrown it together in 5 minutes tops.

 

[Juggie]

Nope. There are problems that can't really be helped this way, because they don't have exact solutions that can be found in sensible amount of time.

For example you can see battle as tree of events branching from start with each possible outcome being a leaf. If the tree is large and branches a lot (that's one of the major points of random mechanics, BTW), you can't really explore it all and find optimal choices in those branching points that depend on your choices. All you can do is formulate your tactics as set of rules you use when navigating the tree, but it's mere heuristics, not an exact solution. Applying math doesn't help here. OTOH doing a lot of math on HPs, APs and whatever doesn't really make this tactical tree any more complex and tactical decisions more difficult. All it proves is that you can count at primary school level.

Even if finding the globally optimal solution is unfeasible, you can still apply heuristics (as you said). Good example would be locally optimal choice or using approximations. You can translate these into mathematical problems and they would help you finding good solutions. I don't know how this makes math useless in this situation. Even if it's impractical to to search for the optimal path, math is still quite useful.

When making a game AI, there are different approaches, but usually most decisions are based on comparing the options, which is simple math. The whole game tree is exponential, therefore finding the optimal solution is unfeasible so you need to guide the AI a little (game-wide strategies are usually hardcoded). The AI still needs to decide what has the highest priority in specific situations and it does what most people do - compare the costs and the expected gains.

 

[Helton]

Unlike you I don't have fetish for solids.

Nope. You have a fetish for dragons.

 

[Grunker]

UI looks really good to me! But please switch character portraits and text-window.

:throws up on keyboard:

Please... please, take it away... I can't... I can't take it...

It's like all the worst parts of old UIs rolled into one horrible abomination.

 

[Blaine]

DraQ's UI looks like someone poured the UI elements into a Yahtzee cup and rolled them back out onto the scenery.

 

[Roguey]

BG2 has an 800x600 mode.

Doesn't matter because the UI is obviously designed for 640x480 with how everything is so cramped. IWD2's minimum resolution was 800x600.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63851-update-54-art-update-work-is-in-progress/page-9#entry1335267

I have to say I think it's strange that people are requesting UI layouts with character portraits far away from action icons, floating wireframe UIs, and similar features. While it's true that BG1 and IWD1 used wrap-around UIs, that was because 640x480 base resolutions didn't allow us to fit all of the elements along one edge of the screen. As soon as we went to 800x600 in IWD2, we immediately went to a consolidated UI layout that made mouse movement much more efficient. I understand that a lot of people use hotkeys and we certainly plan to support that, but GUIs need to be functional for people who use them. Putting abilities 75%+ of the screen width away from the character portraits is really inefficient.

UI looks really good to me! But please switch character portraits and text-window.

Josh doesn't want to.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63851-update-54-art-update-work-is-in-progress/page-10#entry1335333

I believe that the character portraits contain more vital information that the player looks at with higher frequency than the combat log.

 

[Mangoose]

IMO it would be nice to be able to access a character's spells directly instead of having to select the character first and THEN click on the spellbook. Perhaps a few "quick spells" could be easily accessed, at the least.

 

[Delterius]

IMO it would be nice to be able to access a character's spells directly instead of having to select them first and THEN click on the spellbook. Perhaps a few "quick spells" could be easily accessed, at the least.

Actually, I had hopep they'd do it like NwN 2. Just with bigger icons - sure it might take up space on the screen, but its not like that window is always open.

 

[Infinitron]

I must say I like how Josh is bitchslapping all the people who want more emotionally engaging portraits in that thread.

 

[Cosmic Misogynerd]

I must say I like how Josh is bitchslapping all the people who want more emotionally engaging portraits in that thread.

Post some comments pliz.

 

[Zed]

I think the UI could be a lot more to my taste, but I'm really happy with what they have implemented so far. As long as the functionality is all there, and they don't go with some "undockable" MMO bullshit, I'm happy.

Now they just have to get Justin Sweet to make some proper portraits. :D

 

[SCO]

I wouldn't mind emotionally engaging portraits in the vein of Might and Magic (that is, changeable according to conditions). But uh, less cheesy. With a transition effect maybe.

Would make npc modders jobs tremendously harder, leaving it only the most insanely dedicated or elaboration of original characters (and THAT is all to the good).

 

[861129]

I'll just spam my version here as well.

Sawyer wants to minimize mouse travel distance from right-aligned portraits to the action bar, because this is apparently the most uncomfortable direction to move the mouse for a right-handed person, and he wants to keep the dialogue box aligned to the right for readablity. The wide bottom bar eats away at the already narrow widescreen viewport, however. Thus, a left-aligned UI?

 

[Zed]

Would make npc modders jobs tremendously harder, leaving it only the most insanely dedicated or elaboration of original characters (and THAT is all to the good).

I still don't see the appeal of adding fan-made NPCs and such content to a game like this. I'll never understand BG2-modders.

 

[SCO]

Party-members npc mods are trash and unfortunately common as a vehicle of frustrated schlock.

 

[Cosmic Misogynerd]

In before hiver makes another mockup GUI but for PE.

 

[circ]

You are all faggots.

And GUI can be pretty/ornate/artistic/whatever without taking up a lot of space and not using it.

That's the wrong question. The right question is "what kind of choice isn't helped by translating it into mathemathical problem?"

I'm not quite sure what you mean, because that seems to be the same thing I wrote. You translate the choice into mathematical problem as it is good for modeling shit and finding solutions. But with enough understanding of the gameplay mechanics I think that any gameplay choice can be translated into mathematical problem and depending on how well you translate it helps you in choosing the optimal solution.

Nope. There are problems that can't really be helped this way, because they don't have exact solutions that can be found in sensible amount of time.

For example you can see battle as tree of events branching from start with each possible outcome being a leaf. If the tree is large and branches a lot (that's one of the major points of random mechanics, BTW), you can't really explore it all and find optimal choices in those branching points that depend on your choices. All you can do is formulate your tactics as set of rules you use when navigating the tree, but it's mere heuristics, not an exact solution. Applying math doesn't help here. OTOH doing a lot of math on HPs, APs and whatever doesn't really make this tactical tree any more complex and tactical decisions more difficult. All it proves is that you can count at primary school level.

This looks horrible. Too many single elements cluttered all over the screen, like some shitty MMO, instead of a solid "bar" of UI.

Shut the fuck up. Best one so far.

EDIT: this one was good.

 

[Grunker]

BG2 has an 800x600 mode.

Doesn't matter because the UI is obviously designed for 640x480 with how everything is so cramped. IWD2's minimum resolution was 800x600.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63851-update-54-art-update-work-is-in-progress/page-9#entry1335267

I have to say I think it's strange that people are requesting UI layouts with character portraits far away from action icons, floating wireframe UIs, and similar features. While it's true that BG1 and IWD1 used wrap-around UIs, that was because 640x480 base resolutions didn't allow us to fit all of the elements along one edge of the screen. As soon as we went to 800x600 in IWD2, we immediately went to a consolidated UI layout that made mouse movement much more efficient. I understand that a lot of people use hotkeys and we certainly plan to support that, but GUIs need to be functional for people who use them. Putting abilities 75%+ of the screen width away from the character portraits is really inefficient.

UI looks really good to me! But please switch character portraits and text-window.

Josh doesn't want to.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63851-update-54-art-update-work-is-in-progress/page-10#entry1335333

I believe that the character portraits contain more vital information that the player looks at with higher frequency than the combat log.

I thought he was big on "what players actually do"?

People check moving, constant information all the time. Portraits are more static and checked periodically.

 

[Infinitron]

The portraits typically show how much hit points the character has, so people do glance at them often. And of course you use them to select the character you want to use.

 

[Commissar Draco]

The portraits typically show how much hit points the character has, so people do glance at them often. And of course you use them to select the character you want to use.

Or to buff/heal them... much more convenient this way and one of the reasons the Inquisitor gameplay sucked.

 

[Grunker]

The portraits typically show how much hit points the character has, so people do glance at them often. And of course you use them to select the character you want to use.

Of course, but selection can happen in the world as well. I guarantee you that moving text will catch the eyes more often. But eh, it's not a big deal. As long as the UI isn't a floaty, web-design-like clusterfuck like ToEE/Wasteland 2 which some people are calling for, or God-forbid the terrible piece of shit that was Wizardry's UI. Love the game, but fuck the UI sideways. Making your character do shit has never required as many clicks.

 

[Arkeus]

Portraits in IE games also shows status effect like free movement/dazed/drained/etc.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Baldurs Gate 2, with a better Journal system, has probably the best UI out of any rpg i have played, just copy that and call it a day.