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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Save-or-die is not a very good idea but it is also cool in that it is an alternate path to get a kill. You are attacking their saves instead of milling down their HP. Less obnoxious, situational, specialized, whatever ways to get "alternate kills" like that are usually pretty fun. Like if there is some spell-skill combo that multiple party members can get in on that creates non-HP-based kills, that kinda thing.


You can still have powerful spells that do lots of damage if the target fails its saving throw.

A good idea is those JRPG-type spells that take off 50% of your HP, rather than an absolute value. That's very powerful, yet by definition not an insta-kill.
 

Gozma

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I thought the problem with save-or-die is that it's random and that it needs only one step, rather than because it kills without lowering HP to zero. Killing without milling off all HP is what I'm talking about with "alternate path" stuff. Like if there is some massively armored fighter, pushing him off a boat into deep water; that kinda shit.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I thought the problem with save-or-die is that it's random and that it needs only one step, rather than because it kills without lowering HP to zero.

Sure.

I'm just not sure I can think of a good way to "kill without lowering HP to zero" knowing what I know about PE's systems and design philosophy. Taking off percentages rather than absolute amounts is kind of similar to that, though. You're attacking the HP, but in a different way.
 

Gozma

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Think about like, something that needs numbers. Like two characters can cooperate to pin a single enemy over N seconds (based on some relevant stats or skills) which can then be instakilled by any third character in melee. No random factors, not single step, no HP. You could have a whole party where your main offense is based on pin+kill, there could be enemy encounters that exploit the mechanic to kill the party... etc etc
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Think about like, something that needs numbers. Like two characters can cooperate to pin a single enemy over N seconds (based on some relevant stats or skills) which can then be instakilled by any third character in melee. No random factors, not single step, no HP. You could have a whole party where your main offense is based on pin+kill, there could be enemy encounters that exploit the mechanic to kill the party... etc etc


Deterministic insta-killing? Interesting idea. You could even just have a spell with a really, really long casting time (maybe your mage loses HP while casting it making him extra vulnerable?) that kills with probability 100% once cast.

It might end up being too cheesy/exploitable no matter how hard you try though.
 

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Hmm, maybe long-term paralysis spells? I wonder what JES thinks about those. Roguey?
He's mentioned Eternity will likely have paralysis spells and if you succeed against them, the duration will be cut as opposed to nothing at all.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Hmm, maybe long-term paralysis spells? I wonder what JES thinks about those. Roguey?
He's mentioned Eternity will likely have paralysis spells and if you succeed against them, the duration will be cut as opposed to nothing at all.


That I know, but the question is how long will the duration be overall. Some of those paralysis spells from the IE games lasted pretty damn long. Hold Person in BG could be an instant fight ender just as much as any instant death spell.
 

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Hmm, maybe long-term paralysis spells? I wonder what JES thinks about those. Roguey?
He's mentioned Eternity will likely have paralysis spells and if you succeed against them, the duration will be cut as opposed to nothing at all.


That I know, but the question is how long will the duration be overall. Some of those paralysis spells from the IE games lasted pretty damn long. Hold Person in BG could be an instant fight ender just as much as any instant death spell.
http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63091-josh-sawyer-on-miss-and-hit/page-16#entry1301326
PE will have control-loss effects (stuns/roots/charms), though their durations will probably not be as long as A/D&D counterparts (which are often really, really long).
 

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I thought the problem with save-or-die is that it's random and that it needs only one step, rather than because it kills without lowering HP to zero.
Actually, I kind of object to "one step" part.
A lot can happen between enemy starting to cast and instakill occuring. If the spell requires line of sight, you can move behind something or break line of sight using stuff like invisibility or some summoned cover/concealment (well implemented LoS requiring spell should check for LoS at the moment of casting as well). You can cast counterspell. You can inflict damage to enemy caster, physically or magically, to break their concentration. Stoneskin is bullshit, BTW. Even kicking stoneskinned mage in the ass or pushing him should have good chance of interrupting casting because it would interfere with precise, minute gestures required for casting. Any attack that *can* physically hit the mage (not just hit, can - you don't just miss in melee without target taking defensive actions) should have good chance of disrupting casting. Unless mage made themsleves ethereal or you can't get to them (due to mundane reasons or bubble-shield like spells) hitting them, even for no damage, should disrupt casting. You can try disabling mage physically or magically without attempting to deal damage - I'd assume it's hard to keep casting when someone grapples you, and no, stoneskin doesn't boost your STR.


Even in games where instakill is actually one-step action it's often preventable without metagaming - see Wizardry 8 - it usually doesn't take much genius to recognize casters at distance *before* combat starts. At the very least instakill can serve dual purpose of being effective gating mechanism combined with resource management when used by enemy (oops, powerful casters - no protections? - retreat) and valid crowd killers when used by the player.

Then, apart from casting delays you can have other kinds of delayed save-or-die attacks and spells. Maybe cloudkill isn't potent enough to kill you via skin or mucus membranes and requires to be actually inhaled to end you - then if you hold your breath you have limited time to act while already in the cloud (you can connect it with less rigorous than usual save mechanics - for example you only get this extra time if you have fairly intelligent/wise party member or NPC with you who isn't blinded or muted, or are intelligent yourself). Maybe area on which enemy cast Horrid Bolt of Doom and Utter Anihilation will start glowing and emit weird phenomena before the actual bolt plummets from the skies and turns it into white glowing molten crater?

Then you have already mentioned situational instakills - pinned enemy, backstab and so on.

Deterministic insta-killing? Interesting idea.
Why not? RPG isn't meant to be slot machine, probabilistic mechanics is there to add uncertainty, not to base whole game on. This means that deterministic mechanics is very well suited for at least prototyping the barebones mechanics, before you add skill and stat rolls, and all the other random stuff to force more robust planning and actual character building.

Traditional games (like chess) often had deterministic instakilling, and don't forget that HPs themselves started out as probabilistic survival buffer (before they went horribly wrong with level up inflation). You weren't guaranteed to survive if your 1d6 thief was stabbed by 1d4 dagger.

So, yeah, I would risk saying that:

1. You can have interesting deterministic instakill.

2. If your save-or-die mechanics is broken when you remove the save part, then it's broken, period.

3. If deterministic instakill works well as mechanics it will also work well when coupled with non-deterministic saves.
 

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It's been said that Project Eternity will grant each class a special ability per level. Spells are not special abilities.

Actually they are. But not in the sense you think.

If you go back and read the "Core Four" reveal, a class ability includes "1st level Wizard Spells", which is the ability to cast a certain number of 1st level spells per rest.

Sweet! That's awesome! :)

Giving "a lot to do" for each type of class is generally a good idea in P&P where each player controls a single character, but there's nothing wrong with less micro-heavy classes in party-cRPGs. I was a bit worried from his like of 4E that this was going to be the case.

His example was 1 ability (active, modal or passive) per level per class. We do not know whether classes get to choose from multiple abilities at any level, more than likely they just get a set ability a level and the customization comes from everything else. But I am not sure. It would be cool if you were given a choice between say 3 abilities every 2 levels or something.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Didn't Josh talk about being able to choose more or less active abilities to create high/low maintenance characters? Not having a choice in abilities sounds pretty weak.

Yes, but I don't think that's a choice between these special per-level class abilities. Rather it would be through selection of feats, perks, or whatever they're called in this game. It's possible that they are one and the same, though.
 

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If a game allows for resurrection, why is save-or-die so bad? The goal isn't to win every fight and no one ever dies, is it?
 

Arkeus

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Didn't Josh talk about being able to choose more or less active abilities to create high/low maintenance characters? Not having a choice in abilities sounds pretty weak.

Yes, but I don't think that's a choice between these special per-level class abilities. Rather it would be through selection of feats, perks, or whatever they're called in this game. It's possible that they are one and the same, though.
I seem to remember that you could either go "passive enhancement" route or "active abilities" route, so it seems to me that you can choose the abilities.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Didn't Josh talk about being able to choose more or less active abilities to create high/low maintenance characters? Not having a choice in abilities sounds pretty weak.

Yes, but I don't think that's a choice between these special per-level class abilities. Rather it would be through selection of feats, perks, or whatever they're called in this game. It's possible that they are one and the same, though.
I seem to remember that you could either go "passive enhancement" route or "active abilities" route, so it seems to me that you can choose the abilities.


Yes, but again, that specialization might manifest itself through the selection of feats on level-up, with these per-level class abilities being a separate, fixed thing. Or maybe they're one and the same, I don't know. Roguey?
 

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Feats in PE are 'talents', if I'm not mistaken. I seem to remember that they are not necessarily class specific, meaning if you can't choose class ability, all classes could have basically the same choice in new abilities at level-up.

When Josh said that thing about having at least 110 abilities, I read that as "at the bare minimum, given one ability per level, 11 classes, and level 10 cap". He was defending a lower level cap, I didn't think he was confirming only one specific ability per level. Could be wrong.
 

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Enjoy the Revolution! Another revolution around the sun that is. Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
all classes could have basically the same choice in new abilities at level-up.

Presumably they would have stat and level prerequisites, like D&D
 

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