Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Gakkone]

Sorry, but being indie oldschool wannabe doesn't mean you get free ride.

It's not supposed to get a free ride you fuck. Every sensible being in existence is giving favourable impressions of the game and you're not even trying it because you think it looks like shit. So to you shitty graphics mean you get no ride at all; that's you being a pure fucking graphics whore.

 

[DraQ]

Sorry, but being indie oldschool wannabe doesn't mean you get free ride.

It's not supposed to get a free ride you fuck. Every sensible being in existence is giving favourable impressions of the game and you're not even trying it because you think it looks like shit. So to you shitty graphics mean you get no ride at all; that's you being a pure fucking graphics whore.

It looks like shit, it's premise sounds like shit, plot is presumably shitty and it's built around shitty system.

Also, in the end it's just a D&D combat simulator, and I just don't fap to D&D combat simulators. Any. Ever.
It's the kind of game that loses my interest as soon as I read the title.

 

[Grunker]

Even if true, the diversity still worked on first playthrough because it wasn't immediately obvious what the good spells were. And in BG2 you could use a good selection.

Obfuscation and false choices aren't good things.

False choices - maybe, obfuscation - heeeeeeeeeeeeeell no. Baldur's Gate was extremely well-documented by the standards of those days. Hell, it still is.

As for false choices, that's hardly an objective sin like lack of documentation is.

By the by, BG without the expansion had a little over 100 spells, IWD without the expansion had nearly 190, Torment had around 90. I'd guesstimate Eternity's list will be somewhere in between, probably closer to BG's

If you by spells mean the entire selection of active abilities in the game, then yes, you're probably right. However that leave little choice for each class, since active abilities will be spread over more classes.

 

[wergle]

I hate when people do what DraQ is doing

 

[Rake]

I hate when people do what DraQ is doing

What exactly?

 

[Surf Solar]

I hate when people do what DraQ is doing

What exactly?

Being a dumbfuck?

 

[Rake]

I hate when people do what DraQ is doing

What exactly?

Being a dumbfuck?

Well, in this case everything he says is true. KotC is perfect in what it tries to do, but what it tries to do is pretty narrow and if that doesn't interest you, there is absolutelly no reason to play the game as it has nothing else going for it. The game is just a combat engine. If that is what you are searching for then yes, it's the best in years. But Draq's critisisms are also true. It is just how much weight they carry for each individual.

 

[wergle]

DraQ hasn't even played the game

 

[Rake]

DraQ hasn't even played the game

It looks like shit, it's premise sounds like shit, plot is presumably shitty and it's built around shitty system.

Also, in the end it's just a D&D combat simulator, and I just don't fap to D&D combat simulators. Any. Ever.

Most of the things he complains about you don't need to play the game to see them. If he had said that gameplay or AI or character creation or whatever are shit then yes, you would have a point. But he complains about graphics, D&D system in general and that he doesn't like combat simulators. For that you don't need to play the game.
Ultimately, what i say is that Codex goes very easily in butthurt mode whan someone criticises their favorite games. He didn't even said that he doesn't play the game only because it looks like shit. He said that the whole premise sounds like shit to him.

 

[Jim Cojones]

Well, in this case everything he says is true. KotC is perfect in what it tries to do, but what it tries to do is pretty narrow and if that doesn't interest you, there is absolutelly no reason to play the game as it has nothing else going for it. The game is just a combat engine. If that is what you are searching for then yes, it's the best in years. But Draq's critisisms are also true. It is just how much weight they carry for each individual.

It also doesn't do anything particularly poorly, maybe aside form graphics, although I quite like them, they fit the adolescent, naive fantasy style of the game well enough. Music is fantastic, plot is exactly what this game needs - it gives you a decent motivation to go explore the dungeons and fight your enemies while being coherent enough - there are no plotholes or dumb decisions of the villains that would make you facepalm continuously throughout the game. Some subplots and quests are pretty decent, like the conflict between the sentient races living in the lower levels of the first optional dungeon you can find.

It has some cool features that make the game a must play for anyone interested in RPG design - AI, the way your intel influences how the combat encounters start, brilliant in game documentation, the ways you can customize interface in options menu.

 

[Roguey]

people arguing in favor of save-or-die effects ftl

Josh ftw

If you by spells mean the entire selection of active abilities in the game, then yes, you're probably right. However that leave little choice for each class, since active abilities will be spread over more classes.

We will definitely have a level cap because we are making a class-based game where each (of 11!) class gains specific abilities as they level. Even with only 10 levels, that would be at least 110 abilities. That's a lot of custom content.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/406336156859394646

Some will have more than others. Traditionally spell-heavy classes like wizards, priests, and druids will probably have the most.

 

[Infinitron]

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/463736096556078991

 

[Rake]

people arguing in favor of save-or-die effects ftl

Josh ftw

If you by spells mean the entire selection of active abilities in the game, then yes, you're probably right. However that leave little choice for each class, since active abilities will be spread over more classes.

We will definitely have a level cap because we are making a class-based game where each (of 11!) class gains specific abilities as they level. Even with only 10 levels, that would be at least 110 abilities. That's a lot of custom content.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/406336156859394646

Some will have more than others. Traditionally spell-heavy classes like wizards, priests, and druids will probably have the most.

Roguey, 110 abilities per class? Does he include spells in that number? Then if class has different spells, every class will have around 100 . Thats a lot.
But if 110 all classes together, with abilities and spells put together and every class having different spells then 110 are way to few.

 

[Infinitron]

Rake No, not per class. In total. It's pretty obvious. He's not talking about spells, he's talking about class abilities only.

 

[Rake]

Rake No, not per class. In total. It's pretty obvious. He's not talking about spells, he's talking about class abilities only.

As i said, does he include spells in that number or only abilities? Because if spells are in too then 110 are way too few if every class have different spells.
Edit: Never mind, you answered already

 

[Infinitron]

It's been said that Project Eternity will grant each class a special ability per level. Spells are not special abilities.

 

[Rivmusique]

I'm not into save or die either, but who are these people that reload until they succeed with one to clear a room/target in a round? Do they reload until their fighters open with crits? Sawyer says strange things.

 

[Rake]

Has he mentioned anywhere how extensive the spell lists will be? Has he a spesific target in mind?

 

[Infinitron]

I'm not into save or die either, but who are these people that reload until they succeed with one to clear a room/target in a round? Do they reload until their fighters open with crits? Sawyer says strange things.

Maybe some do, but crits aren't as useful since they don't usually instakill tough enemies. They also only affect a single target, and at close range which is harder to pull off. Hence there's not as much to gain by save-scumming.

 

[DraQ]

Most of the things he complains about you don't need to play the game to see them. If he had said that gameplay or AI or character creation or whatever are shit then yes, you would have a point. But he complains about graphics, D&D system in general and that he doesn't like combat simulators. For that you don't need to play the game.
Ultimately, what i say is that Codex goes very easily in butthurt mode whan someone criticises their favorite games. He didn't even said that he doesn't play the game only because it looks like shit. He said that the whole premise sounds like shit to him.

Well, I like good combat simulators - when they are embedded in good games. They don't make good games entirely on their own.

It also doesn't do anything particularly poorly, maybe aside form graphics, although I quite like them, they fit the adolescent, naive fantasy style of the game well enough.

I hate this adolescent, naive fantasy with passion. Always have.
Unless it's done ironically, like in Wiz8 or Divinity games.

Some subplots and quests are pretty decent, like the conflict between the sentient races living in the lower levels of the first optional dungeon you can find.

Ok. Colour me interested and expound.

AI

It's very important, but game can't hinge on it, because if it's just intelligence you want, you can go and play something against living opponent.

brilliant in game documentation

Useful, but hardly essential feature. It's been in Morrowind and Wizardry 8 too.

the ways you can customize interface in options menu.

I don't think you can possibly beat Morrowind in this regard and either way it's low priority.

I'm not into save or die either, but who are these people that reload until they succeed with one to clear a room/target in a round? Do they reload until their fighters open with crits? Sawyer says strange things.

Maybe some do, but crits aren't as useful since they don't usually instakill tough enemies. They also only affect a single target, and at close range which is harder to pull off. Hence there's not as much to gain by save-scumming.

Single target effects are more susceptible to scumming.

With multiple targets, each makes a roll, so the more targets the more deterministic the result will be in the end because that's how probabilities work.

 

[Infinitron]

You still have more to gain by scumming if you might have a chance of taking out an entire group. But in any case that's not essential to my argument.

 

[Grunker]

people arguing in favor of save-or-die effects ftl

Josh ftw

If you by spells mean the entire selection of active abilities in the game, then yes, you're probably right. However that leave little choice for each class, since active abilities will be spread over more classes.

We will definitely have a level cap because we are making a class-based game where each (of 11!) class gains specific abilities as they level. Even with only 10 levels, that would be at least 110 abilities. That's a lot of custom content.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/406336156859394646

Some will have more than others. Traditionally spell-heavy classes like wizards, priests, and druids will probably have the most.

Sweet! That's awesome!

Giving "a lot to do" for each type of class is generally a good idea in P&P where each player controls a single character, but there's nothing wrong with less micro-heavy classes in party-cRPGs. I was a bit worried from his like of 4E that this was going to be the case.

 

[DraQ]

You still have more to gain by scumming if you might have a chance of taking out an entire group. But in any case that's not essential to my argument.

If you are patient enough.

Assume you have a single target that has 50% chance of saving. On average you'll need 2 attempts to kill the target, with up to 5 tries you achieve over 95% probability of your instakill attack succeeding. If you have 10 targets with 50% of saving, your chance of taking out the entire group is below 0.1% - that's 1024 attempts on average until you succeed and almost 3000 attempts to get 95% of killing the entire group. Now let's say that each attempt and reload takes you 20s. In first case you have to prepare for scumming for over 1.5 minute to be reasonably sure of your success and have to scum for 40s on average. That's quite boring and unenjoyable, but ok, might be worth it.

In second case you'll have to spend ove 5h on average and prepare for well over 16h to be reasonably sure. Non-stop just casting and reloading, casting and reloading, casting and reloading. Would you do that? Because I wouldn't and those who would are probably in the same category as those funny asiatic dudes who are reported to have died after multiple-day gaming binges. Natural selection clears them out. You, as a designer, don't have to.

 

[DeepOcean]

It didn't costed much to have a few spell slots and scrolls to protect yourself against save or die spells, it involved preparation and not metagamming, sure you can save scumm but it is your problem. If you are going to put enemy casters with save or die spells and don't give the player the chance to prepare himself in battle by making save or die spells that are relatively quick to cast, not easy to distinguish from other spells in the first time you play, making only one boss in the entire game use that particular spell (if imprisionment was a common ocurrence in high level mage battles then you would learn to always have a few freedom spells just in case) , sure it would be a problem of metagamming but that is more a problem of a shitty casting system on the horrible RTwP implementation, encounter design and shitty AI of the Infinite Engine games than Save or die spells being OP , it is way more interesting to use mages in a way to neutralize other mages than walking artillery and by removing save or die you remove one of the aspects that made mages so dangerous to the point of you needing another mage class just to offer protection.

If your mages are preparing a massive volley of finger of death to use on a mage boss with weak saves, it would be awesome for him to have a decent enough AI and quickly cast death ward as protection in preparation for your movement instead of being outright immune to everything save or die related, by following the logic of saving or die spells being metagamming intensive, so are the fear, confusion, domination, paralization spells, fuck even conjuration spells like gate can fuck you over if you don't have protection from evil and every spell that don't deal direct damage can induce save scumming. Without having to spend spell slots with protection spells, you are free to make your bombard until oblivion strategy even more viable and seriously, haste and web spells + ranged weapons are way worse causes of degenerate gameplay in Infinite Engine games than save or die.

 

[Gozma]

Save-or-die is not a very good idea but it is also cool in that it is an alternate path to get a kill. You are attacking their saves instead of milling down their HP. Less obnoxious, situational, specialized, whatever ways to get "alternate kills" like that are usually pretty fun. Like if there is some spell-skill combo that multiple party members can get in on that creates non-HP-based kills, that kinda thing.