Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Beats me. Josh said he isn't going to lock you in because of the negative reaction he saw when Knights of the Chalice did it in several places.

No, this is what he said: http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/449363929492124469

We've talked about it, but for now we're going to see how the rest areas work on their own. Some people on the team believe that if we limit the use of the rest locations it will be excessively punitive.

Knights of the Chalice generally allows players to re-use rest sites, but there's at least one area I remember that doesn't and I saw a lot of negative response to it.

Personally, I do worry about the potential for player dissatisfaction either if resting removes all challenge or if restricted resting makes things too frustrating. In any case, it's something we're going to be looking at and thinking about more as we continue development.

So things may yet change.

(btw, responses like these are proof that most of the real "dumbing down" in PE is going to come from people at Obsidian who aren't named Josh Sawyer)

 

[SCO]

At least put it in higher difficulties

 

[imweasel]

It doesn't matter because you can always just backtrack to a safe area to rest.

Sure, but how is PE addressing this?

Healing at your local designated resting area (= many per dungeon) as often as you want is part of Sawyer's faggotry design methodology.

There is not even a negative aspect to resting, unlike in the IE games:

i recall swarms of monsters attacking me anytime i rested in a dungeon.
i don't know what IE games you guys are playing...

So, instead of having your health heal automatically after battle (as we have seen so often during the decline) you just have to walk a little bit to a resting area for the same result.

 

[Grunker]

That'd be less punishing than the pushover traps in the old IE games.

Now I KNOW you've misunderstood something. In old IE games I just pressed my rest button after tanking any traps in my way.

That's just bullshit.

I distinctly recall dualing Imoen somewhere around Candlekeep dungeons and discovering that my second thief isn't sufficiently good at trap removal and it ended up a nasty clusterfuck - you can't really tank resetting lightning bolt traps in narrow corridor. Sure you can globe your caster but most of your party will still end up as charred corpses.
And then HD failure nom'd my save .

I played Baldur's Gate and its successor around 50 times total at least (inb4 new meme) and I NEVER used a thief. Not a single time. Always dual-classed Imoen, never removed traps, always tanked them or went around them. So no, it's not bullshit, traps in BG were inconsequential.

 

[Roguey]

There is not even a negative aspect to resting, unlike in the IE games:

That's not a negative aspect if you're doing it after every or every other fight.

So, instead of having your health heal automatically after battle (as we have seen so often during the decline) you just have to walk a little bit to a resting area for the same result.

Planescape Torment. You could only ever rest in safe locations.

 

[Rivmusique]

When Sawyer said he didn't want trap mechanics to be frustrating, it seemed to me that was more about detection and disarming. So it won't be like IE, where the safe way to check for traps would be to move whatever you assume is the range of find trap, wait 6 seconds, move again, wait, repeat. The damaging stamina first thing just seems to be there to make classes/builds take different health damage based their ratios.

 

[imweasel]

There is not even a negative aspect to resting, unlike in the IE games:

That's not a negative aspect if you're doing it after every or every other fight.

There should be some strings attached to resting/healing. In P:E there will not be any.

The game should kick your ass hard if you fuck up - and not be so forgiving by letting you rest almost anywhere. Which, in turn, removes a large part of the strategic challenge.

So, instead of having your health heal automatically after battle (as we have seen so often during the decline) you just have to walk a little bit to a resting area for the same result.

Planescape Torment. You could only ever rest in safe locations.

You can't rest in dungeons in Planescape AT ALL. You had to backtrack all the way back to a flop house, etc. in order to rest.

 

[Blaine]

This is how I approached most of the IE games:

• Save in town.
• Proceed to dungeon.
• No saving, no resting, try to explore the entire thing.
• Push it until most spells are gone and/or most members' health is low and/or numerous consumables have been used.
• If this happens before dungeon is finished, backtrack to town.
• If I die, reload save all the way back in town.

Something like that. I lived life on the edge, hoarding potions and trying my best not to use many while pushing the party's safety as far as possible. Felt very satisfying to me.

I don't think I realized there was a huge need for rest restrictions, "locking in" to areas, and save scum prevention because I always try to minimize that crap anyway. As far as I'm concerned, people should be able to scum and rest as much or as little as they please.

 

[AN4RCHID]

Respawning encounters would fix everything

 

[Infinitron]

This is how I approached most of the IE games:

• Save in town.
• Proceed to dungeon.
• No saving, no resting, try to explore the entire thing.
• Push it until most spells are gone and/or most members' health is low and/or numerous consumables have been used.
• If this happens before dungeon is finished, backtrack to town.
• If I die, reload save all the way back in town.

Something like that. I lived life on the edge, hoarding potions and trying my best not to use many while pushing the party's safety as far as possible. Felt very satisfying to me.


I don't think I realized there was a huge need for rest restrictions, "locking in" to areas, and save scum prevention because I always try to minimize that crap anyway. As far as I'm concerned, people should be able to scum and rest as much or as little as they please.

The question is, were those games actually "meant" to be played that way? Were you playing the "right way", or were you just LARPing?

The advantage of more restrictive rules on resting is that they allow the designer to craft encounters and other content with a better idea of what kind of shape the player's party is in. "Yeah, the party's probably gonna be pretty busted up by the time they get here. So I'll put an encounter here that's appropriate to that. If they manage to win, they'll find some items that'll help them fight on a bit longer." And so on.

Personally, I think it's more fun to be able to fight on with your wounded party than to come back fully recharged every time you hit that impassable brick wall. Doesn't meant it has to be easy, mind you, but most dungeons should be designed so it's at least possible, if you're good enough.

Respawning encounters would fix everything

Yeah, they would help. I've actually asked Josh about that, let's see if he responds.

 

[Rivmusique]

The game should kick your ass hard if you fuck up - and not be so forgiving by letting you rest almost anywhere. Which, in turn, removes a large part of the strategic challenge.

This was the problem with IE games (except PS:T I guess) that P:E is trying to fix.

 

[Grunker]

• Save in town.
• Proceed to dungeon.
• No saving, no resting, try to explore the entire thing.
• Push it until most spells are gone and/or most members' health is low and/or numerous consumables have been used.
• If this happens before dungeon is finished, backtrack to town.
• If I die, reload save all the way back in town.

Self-imposed rules to make up for shitty design i.e. LARPing. IE-games are my favourites, but defending the points where they made you laugh is fucking stupid.

 

[Infinitron]

Okay, I created a thread for this topic on the Obsidian forums: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...roblem-limited-resting-or-respawning-enemies/

This might get good.

 

[CappenVarra]

I played Baldur's Gate and its successor around 50 times total at least (inb4 new meme)

Well, that explains the brain damage

 

[hiver]

Okay, I created a thread for this topic on the Obsidian forums: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/63...roblem-limited-resting-or-respawning-enemies/

This might get good.

Respawning enemies are just XP dumbpsters, man.
All that creates is players who will rest intentionally to get all that XP.

- hmm... except if PE still holds to its "no XP for combat , or killing individual enemies" - which is it?

- but even if so, enemies give loot - which then turns them into an incentive to rest.


Ive suggested another kind of solution, that is basically very simple, for new Torment.
Simply allow one rest per 24 hours, as nature does, and make days last a bit longer in game time.

Plus, you can add that resting has different amounts of beneficial effects, depending where you rest and so you prioritize inns and other such safe places compared to the wild (nature, outdoors) or dungeons.
While healing needs to be removed from resting all together for serious injuries, or extremely minimal for smaller ones. (8 hours of sleep will not regenerate your wounds - especially if you mean to heal them just by sleeping or resting alone)

While being healed and resting in some sort of hospital or under care of a doctor would work and wouldnt have time limitations. The game would simply subtract a certain number of whole days, all at once, as needed.

 

[DraQ]

I played Baldur's Gate and its successor around 50 times total at least (inb4 new meme)

Well, that explains the brain damage

 

[Grunker]

I played Baldur's Gate and its successor around 50 times total at least (inb4 new meme)

Well, that explains the brain damage

You gave DraQ a nice way out of his faulty argument though

 

[DraQ]

I played Baldur's Gate and its successor around 50 times total at least (inb4 new meme)

Well, that explains the brain damage

You gave DraQ a nice way out of his faulty argument though

Your way of tanking resetting lightning bolt pingpong or GTFO.

You'd need to know of the traps ahead of time and bring tons of pots. IIRC there were several such traps in a row there, so even passsing boots of whatever back over the trap would probably fail to be of much help.

 

[Grunker]

You don't have to. You open chest, loot, move out of the way. There are no mandatory lightning traps that cannot be dodged taking a maximum of one lightning bolt to the face.

 

[DraQ]

You don't have to. You open chest, loot, move out of the way. There are no mandatory lightning traps that cannot be dodged taking a maximum of one lightning bolt to the face.

Corridors. It was catacombs lvl.1, I think, but my memories of BG are fuzzy.

 

[Rivmusique]

- hmm... except if PE still holds to its "no XP for combat , or killing individual enemies" - which is it?

AFAIK Generally no xp for combat. Unless it is a significant fight, like the bounty hunter/assassin fights in BG. Respawns would definitely not count.

- but even if so, enemies give loot - which then turns them into an incentive to rest.

Respawns could just never spawn with worthwhile loot.

 

[Arkeus]

If you grind for hours just one the 0.1% chance you will get that magic scroll you want, you 'deserve' it.

 

[hiver]

Regardless, respawns cannot be the solution. At best that can be addition to the solution.
Besides, its simply not logical or even sane to expect creatures and enemies will endlessly respawn.
Respawning should have some sense to it.

 

[Grunker]

You don't have to. You open chest, loot, move out of the way. There are no mandatory lightning traps that cannot be dodged taking a maximum of one lightning bolt to the face.

Corridors. It was catacombs lvl.1, I think, but my memories of BG are fuzzy.

I know Candlekeep's catacombs in and out. In no place are you required to bring a thief. You know how I can be so certain?

cause I fucking played it a crapton of times and I never once used one

 

[DraQ]

- hmm... except if PE still holds to its "no XP for combat , or killing individual enemies" - which is it?

AFAIK Generally no xp for combat. Unless it is a significant fight, like the bounty hunter/assassin fights in BG. Respawns would definitely not count.

- but even if so, enemies give loot - which then turns them into an incentive to rest.

Respawns could just never spawn with worthwhile loot.

Upkeep mechanics.

Jesus fucking christ, it's that simple - if you put a money faucet in your game, you need a money sink.
If cost of doing round trip with inventory full of crude clubs outweighs any possible profit you can make this way (and then the enemies have respawned), then you're effectively losing the war while you're winning the battles.