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Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Am I the only one who remembers that weapons would break in the early game of BG? And I never even played it.

Yeah. One thing I never figured out - did that stop happening after you cleared out the Nashkel mines?

You start using magic weapons exclusively after a point so it's hard to notice.

Also, that's actually a plot hole in Baldur's Gate. It's made clear that the source of the brittle iron is the Nashkel mines, but at one point an NPC explicitly says that even old iron weapons found in ancient ruins have become brittle. That's actually true - any mundane weapon in the game has a chance of breaking - but no explanation is provided for it.
 

Grunker

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Infinitron said:
Yeah. One thing I never figured out - did that stop happening after you cleared out the Nashkel mines?

Yep :)

That's true, but no explanation is provided for it.
Well, the iron in the Nashkel mines were poisoned, I guess they could have poisoned it via a spell that reached the whole region (i.e. a Wizard did it :M)
 

Carrion

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No need for stupid-ass moneysinks like durability when a set of dragonscale armor costs you 20k gold coins.
They'll probably need additional money sinks to balance out the fact that you can pick up every single thing in the game world, put it into your infinite stash and sell it in the nearest town.
 

Zed

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Am I the only one who remembers that weapons would break in the early game of BG? And I never even played it.
Again, like drow items, this had a grounded/story-based reason. The iron from Nashkel/in the region at the time you adventure through it is of very bad quality. It's been ruined. This is part of Saverok's plot to create a demand for his own supply of iron.
Also, this only applies to cheap-ass normal weapons like "short short" (without enhancements). You had an abundance of weapon to loot. Your blade deteriorated? Kill a kobold and loot a new one.

I find it interesting that the most controversial updates have been written by Tim Cain.

Crafting & Durability: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/528227
Cooldowns: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/318515
Maybe Tim Cain got MMORPG-itus when working at Carbine/NCSoft. :D
 
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Am I reading this right as a midget punching your shoulders and a ballista to the gut doing the same amount of armor damage?
You're reading it right.


I didn't like the durability system in Arcanum, but at least that tried to make a modicum of sense by making a difference between midget punches and those annoying as fuck lava golums or whatever they were. The time Cain's spent working on MMORPGs has clearly gotten to him. (edit: fuck, Zed got there first)

I approve of Tim Cain trolling everyone with his abstract crafting and durability systems.

lol.
 

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Infinitron said:
Yeah. One thing I never figured out - did that stop happening after you cleared out the Nashkel mines?

Yep :)

That's true, but no explanation is provided for it.
Well, the iron in the Nashkel mines were poisoned, I guess they could have poisoned it via a spell that reached the whole region (i.e. a Wizard did it :M)


The whole region except the Iron Throne's own mines in the Cloakwood.

It would have been nice if they'd implemented some kind of flag on every weapon that determined if it was made from Nashkel iron or not. They could even have added some shady merchants that offered to sell you more expensive weapons, guaranteed not to break. Later in the game you'd realize all proceeds went to the Iron Throne.
 

Duraframe300

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I find it interesting that the most controversial updates have been written by Tim Cain.

Crafting & Durability: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/528227
Cooldowns: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity/posts/318515
Maybe Tim Cain got MMORPG-itus when working at Carbine/NCSoft. :D

:)

Regarding crafting, though. Arcanum.

I'm glad there's a beta. Crafting is probably one system that can profit most from it. If they're holding up their promise of long-time support it should at least end up tolerable.
 

861129

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Coming up with an intrusive and annoying mechanic to fix the design problem (?) of money accumulation is idiotic. At least the latter doesn't constantly intrude upon gameplay, and never in the active manner of item repair.

There should be other ways of fixing this (if it needs fixing), such as a separate budget for the stronghold.
 

coffeetable

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No need for stupid-ass moneysinks like durability.

I want to examine his logic again, step by step:
  1. The flow of currency will balanced around players investing in the stronghold.
  2. However, investing in the stronghold is optional, so players who don't will have a surplus of currency.
  3. A gold sink is therefore required to curb this surplus.
  4. The gold sink chosen will affect all players equally, whether they invest in the stronghold or not.
  5. It must follow that either stronghold investors won't have enough currency, or else the gold sink won't actually do much to curb the surplus possessed by non-investors, defeating the point of it.
It makes absolutely no sense.

You made a flawed assumption: that the maintenance gold sink would affect everyone equally. It won't. It'll affect players who roll round in Durgan steel a lot more than those who make do with Oromi. Investing in the stronghold means trading off elsewhere, in this case by making do with inferior kit.

The theme to a lot of design in F:NV in here is that if a choice is available - like whether to invest in a stronghold - it has both a pro and a con.
 

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
There seems to be enough outrage to warrant consideration though. I'm sure when they wake up today and read the various forums they'll note the concern.

We managed to circumvent cooldowns, always hit, proper map rivers (thanks to that one guy on SA) .. and a few other things

The only thing that despite there being RAGE about was the XP situation. Over time though I've come to accept it as long as it's done well.
 

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The only thing that despite there being RAGE about was the XP situation. Over time though I've come to accept it as long as it's done well.

There wasn't that much rage about XP, I think - it was blunted by the fact that the most hardcore fans tend to be connoisseurs of games like Deus Ex and VTM:B.
 

AstroZombie

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There seems to be enough outrage to warrant consideration though. I'm sure when they wake up today and read the various forums they'll note the concern.

We managed to circumvent cooldowns, always hit, proper map rivers (thanks to that one guy on SA) .. and a few other things

The only thing that despite there being RAGE about was the XP situation. Over time though I've come to accept it as long as it's done well.

I missed that, do you mind explaining what happened there?
 

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Coming up with an intrusive and annoying mechanic to fix the design problem (?) of money accumulation is idiotic. At least the latter doesn't constantly intrude upon gameplay, and never in the active manner of item repair.

There should be other ways of fixing this (if it needs fixing), such as a separate budget for the stronghold.

An economy thread on the P:E forums might be a good idea as well now that we've been given a 'taste' of their plans to tackle it
 

Lancehead

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No I don't. All I'm saying is that the incentive is that every fighter puts the same amount of points in crafting. Homogenized can equally mean that nobody puts any points in it, or that everyone puts max points into it.

I don't see any such incentive, not unless there's too many skill points, at which point there are more incentives than Crafting.


Fine, let's suppose we take your route and say, I'm not going to give all my frontline fighters the same amount of crafting, but fighter A gets a far smaller amount than fighter B. On what basis do you decide this difference? The only conceivable reason would be as Sensuki mentioned that fighter B has more spare skillpoints for whatever reason.

If there's another skill that I think my party could use. I'll have a new skill at the expense of more money spent due to faster degradation and/or having to scavenge for more weapons.

In other words it's a completely arbitrary feature to individualize repair.
I don't really like this mechanic myself, as you can read from my earlier posts, I just don't see it inevitably leading to homogenisation.
 

AstroZombie

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http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/61...rience-points-only-for-completing-objectives/

There was an earlier thread before that as well. There were a lot of us who were like WHAT??? one guy even quit the forums and has not returned to this day (hasn't even logged in either).

Thanks for answering.

Since this is a game that aims to offer flexibility in how you approach certain situations I don't see any cause for rage, as a matter of fact I would have preferred if a game like Fallout had something like that.
 

Roguey

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Yeah, why have a system that makes sense when you can have a system that doesn't?
Because fun and balance are most important.

Also quasi-simulationists are quite arbitrary when it comes to what they consider acceptable. If you're going to be arbitrary might as well go all the way.
 

Blaine

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
No need for stupid-ass moneysinks like durability.

I want to examine his logic again, step by step:
  1. The flow of currency will balanced around players investing in the stronghold.
  2. However, investing in the stronghold is optional, so players who don't will have a surplus of currency.
  3. A gold sink is therefore required to curb this surplus.
  4. The gold sink chosen will affect all players equally, whether they invest in the stronghold or not.
  5. It must follow that either stronghold investors won't have enough currency, or else the gold sink won't actually do much to curb the surplus possessed by non-investors, defeating the point of it.
It makes absolutely no sense.

You made a flawed assumption: that the maintenance gold sink would affect everyone equally. It won't. It'll affect players who roll round in Durgan steel a lot more than those who make do with Oromi. Investing in the stronghold means trading off elsewhere, in this case by making do with inferior kit.

The theme to a lot of design in F:NV in here is that if a choice is available - like whether to invest in a stronghold - it has both a pro and a con.

I'm guessing you have trouble following cause and effect.

We're discussing Sawyer's justification for the durability mechanics, remember? The currency flow in PE can be balanced to do as you say—force the player to make tradeoffs, that is—without any durability mechanics. Therefore, your argument is irrelevant, because tradeoffs are not a raison d'être for the durability mechanic.
 

Rake

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There seems to be enough outrage to warrant consideration though. I'm sure when they wake up today and read the various forums they'll note the concern.

We managed to circumvent cooldowns, always hit, proper map rivers (thanks to that one guy on SA) .. and a few other things

The only thing that despite there being RAGE about was the XP situation. Over time though I've come to accept it as long as it's done well.
I missed that, do you mind explaining what happened there?
 

coffeetable

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I'm guessing you have trouble following cause and effect.

We're discussing Sawyer's justification for the durability mechanics, remember? The currency flow in PE can be balanced to do as you say—force the player to make tradeoffs, that is—without any durability mechanics. Therefore, your argument is irrelevant, because tradeoffs are not a raison d'être for the durability mechanic.

Okay, lemme spell it out to you:

1. Many players do not like to buy items. This results in huge sums of money by late game.
2. There is an option to sink this money into the stronghold
3. If an option exists, there should be an advantage to it and a disadvantage. Without a second, alternative cash sink, there is no disadvantage to investing in the stronghold for the large fraction of players who do not buy items.
4. Durability provides the second cash sink for those players. For players who like to buy items, there is now a three-way tradeoff, which is even better.

The whole idea, and the fundamental point you might disagree with me on, is that you should never have enough money to do everything. You then have a choice of where to focus your insufficient quantity of cash.

All that though is just a secondary mechanic to the primary function of durability, which is to provide a reason for multiple characters to have Crafting skills and so construct a tradeoff in the non-combat skills.

The subject of the next update I suspect will be how it gives an incentive to use low-grade weapons and armour. A third tradeoff.

If durability only constructed one of these tradeoffs, it would be a bad mechanic compared to alternatives. That it manages all three makes it a good one. Better to have one mechanic with several objectives than several mechanics with one each.
 

Duraframe300

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The only thing that despite there being RAGE about was the XP situation. Over time though I've come to accept it as long as it's done well.

There wasn't that much rage about XP, I think - it was blunted by the fact that the most hardcore fans tend to be connoisseurs of games like Deus Ex and VTM:B.

Yep. Though, objective xp has lots of supporters even outside these titles. Crafting on the other hand makes most go *meh* at best and benefits could be replaced by other systems.

I do think though, they excpected the backlash on this update.
 

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