Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[Grunker]

Yes:

The specific list may change, but the biggest difference players will notice in Attributes (compared to A/D&D ability scores) is that all of their bonuses are uniformly applied instead of being keyed to specific types of weapons or attacks. E.g. one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used.

We would like your character concepts to be viable regardless of how you distribute your Attributes. Part of our solution for this is decoupling things like Attribute-based accuracy and damage bonuses from specific types of gear or class abilities. The focus of your character may change based on how you shift the points around, but we want to avoid setting up "must-have" and "must-dump" stats.

So literally the only thing we know is that the stats will grant effects uniformly and not based on classes. Everything you're doing is speculating. We know nothing except that he aims to make all stats relevant for all characters. A laudable aim.

 

[Excidium]

"one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used."

Tell me how this makes any sense outside of melee or throwing shit

 

[hiver]

achhh...

thepoint is not, in your dumb, restricted, static, numerically constricted attributes. Where specific few same ones have horrific privileges while others are useless. always in the bloody same way.

the point is in there being gameplay to roleplay in.
Thats how you rolepay, not by overblown, unbalanced, crude, ancient, massively behind the times - attributes.

 

[Grunker]

"one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used."

Tell me how this makes any sense outside of melee or throwing shit

You realize that was just an example to say that the attributes were generalistic and applied to each class and not that you'd have Attack, Crit Chance and HP stats, right?

That might be what we get (I certainly don't hope so), but concluding that from his statement is speculation. Plain and simple.

 

[Excidium]

"one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used."

Tell me how this makes any sense outside of melee or throwing shit

You realize that was just an example to say that the attributes were generalistic and applied to each class and not that you'd have Attack, Crit Chance and HP stats, right?

That might be what we get (I certainly don't hope so), but concluding that from his statement is speculation. Plain and simple.

What I read there is that an Attribute X increases damage and an attribute Y increases accuracy, 'regardless of the weapons or spells being used'.

 

[Sensuki]

I think that was a real example going by Josh's posts on Something Awful.

 

[Dreaad]

achhh...

thepoint is not, in your dumb, restricted, static, numerically constricted attributes. Where specific few same ones have horrific privileges while others are useless. always in the bloody same way.

the point is in there being gameplay to roleplay in.
Thats how you rolepay, not by overblown, unbalanced, crude, ancient, massively behind the times - attributes.

Seems a bit harsh there buddy. Frankly if there are attributes of any kind whatsoever in the game, then there will be be dump stats. There is always an above average combat build in any RPG. The only way this won't apply is if each stat does exactly the same thing. This new system doesn't really seem to solve anything balance related, from what I understand it just means each stat will have a direct effect on combat thus making it supposedly more viable than stats that don't affect combat in say IE games like CHA.

What would overall be better is if the whole game wasn't focused on combat to begin with, like say PT, in which you could take any stat at any difficulty and be happy that you were not stacking the odds against yourself. Stats should be used for roleplay, not just combat.

 

[hiver]

ergo... more gameplay.

Frankly if there are attributes of any kind whatsoever in the game, then there will be be dump stats.

only if you use them in the same tired old failed way, thinking... this time... its going to work.

synergy. AoD new attribute mechanics.

gameplay.

 

[tuluse]

"one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used."

Tell me how this makes any sense outside of melee or throwing shit

Because characters don't use physical attributes to fight they SOOOUUUUUL POWER

 

[Athelas]

Frankly, I don't see why of STR/CON/INT/WIS/CHA are considered to be "real" as opposed to "gamey". How the hell can you hope to reduce a personality to three values between 3 and 18 marked "intelligence", "wisdom" and "charisma"?

A stat like intelligence doesn't say much about your personality; it's an indication of your deductive skills, ability to learn magic, etc. Ditto for wisdom. Ideally, you fill in your own personality by choosing whether or not act wisely/intelligently (tricking an NPC vs. threatening them with violence, for example).

The only stat that I would call problematic is charisma. Are you charismatic because you're cunning and know how to smooth talk people, or are you charismatic because you're genuinely friendly and sociable? For instance, the idea of a scarred, smelly corpse like the Nameless One having high charisma has many logical flaws.

 

[Hormalakh]

No you guys don't get it. It's not just for LARPing purposes. basically I accept the approach that a computer game has a limited amount of content and enjoyment that you can get from it and that a concept has to be mechanically implemented in a computer game to be worthwhile (no LARPing shit).

Based on these accepted notions, I can give you a few examples of somewhat implemented game mechanics that took attributes into account without it being solely for combat. Example 1 is the dumb dialogue that you were given in Arcanum. It wasn't IE (and IE is not the best RPG example to use out there in the first place; we can fix the shitty elements from these games without losing what made them IE) but it was good for what it was. There was a mechanically compelling reason to pick a dumb character and players got enjoyment out of it (content unlocking). Example 2 was Fallout's female being able to solve a puzzle (sexing up Metzger to save the slaves).

For those of you saying that an RPG shouldn't have ROLE-PAYING elements that are defined by inital attributes, that's pretty much bullshit. It is much simpler to implement character concepts from the beginning of the game than it is to "define" your character based on a bunch of dialogue options that you choose throughout the game. The second option is a headache when it comes to implementing, but the first one is easier.

And if you guys don't think that an RPG should have ROLEPLAYING elements, then i think you guys are in the wrong genre. You'll probably want action-oriented games with stats. the whole point of role-playing games is to play a specific character.

 

[tuluse]

My larping point was about IE games, where CHA, and often INT were basically unsupported outside of PS:T.

 

[Hormalakh]

Maybe Sawyer, like me, didn't care for shit the game didn't recognize. You can roleplay exactly the same character in most games whether you have Cha3 or Cha18.

At least with Sawyer's system, putting points into Intelligence with my warrior has a meaning, so if I absolutely have to larp my attributes, I won't gimp myself doing it.

And I don't disagree with that. But I doubt he's going to have Charisma in the game in the first place. It seems like he'll be choosing attributs that are combat based solely. If it's not interesting in combat, then it's not worth making it an attribute. That might work in MOBA but not in an RPG.

I strongly doubt it. Again, I think Sawyer would agree with me that unless the game recognizes it, there's no point.

That's what I'm saying: he should make sure that the game recognizes it. I said NO LARPING bullshit didn't i? That's the whole point of stat checks in the first place! Make sure your game recognizes attributes in dialogue and solving puzzles. combat is only one aspect of this game.

I believe that if I'm able to roleplay my character through his attributes, that would be really cool and an upgrade from the IE games. I also believe attributes with meaning for all classes are better suited for that, because you can actually have clever fighters and rash wizards.

I'm not fond of Sawyer not going with Pathfinder/D&D, but meaningful attributes offering meaningful choices is something we should all want.

I agree.


------

My larping point was about IE games, where CHA, and often INT were basically unsupported outside of PS:T.

Yeah I think that was bullshit. But other games have done a good job with it. Even PS:T did a fairly good job with it. So why can't we use that? I'm just concerned that his "attributes" are going to only be combat-focused without any role-playing application. DAMAGE, ACCURACY, CRITCHANCE are great for combat but it's shit when it comes to roleplaying a character.

 

[Sensuki]

Mental stats besides the one that protects you from charm spells etc could be made useful via mechanics. It's just that D&D designers have chosen not to make them so.

 

[Excidium]

Mental stats besides the one that protects you from charm spells etc could be made useful via mechanics. It's just that D&D designers have chosen not to make them so.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of use for mental abilities in D&D. It's just that mental tasks are generally better handled through role-playing. In CRPGs the problem is that the current design is to make them I win buttons in scripted situations.

 

[TheRabbitsGeorge]

For instance, the idea of a scarred, smelly corpse like the Nameless One having high charisma has many logical flaws.

Spoiler

This man, despite being a burn victim, won dancing with the stars a few years ago. His excellent charisma, developed and honed during his years as a daytime soap opera actor, was one of the main reasons he won.

A highly charismatic Nameless One is not so far fetched. A deformed person can use his affliction to his benefit, provided he possess enough wit to allow him to subvert audience expectations.

 

[Sensuki]

Mental stats besides the one that protects you from charm spells etc could be made useful via mechanics. It's just that D&D designers have chosen not to make them so.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of use for mental abilities in D&D. It's just that mental tasks are generally better handled through role-playing. In CRPGs the problem is that the current design is to make them I win buttons in scripted situations.

I meant in combat. There's not really much benefit to being an intelligent fighter unless you play some rando prestige class or something.

The implementation Sawyer is going for is even MORE simple than a MOBA ... at least in DotA they have Strength, Agility and Intelligence based damage.

 

[Excidium]

The only stat that I would call problematic is charisma. Are you charismatic because you're cunning and know how to smooth talk people, or are you charismatic because you're genuinely friendly and sociable?

That and more. Appearance, ability to inspire others, etc.

Mental stats besides the one that protects you from charm spells etc could be made useful via mechanics. It's just that D&D designers have chosen not to make them so.

Not necessarily. There's plenty of use for mental abilities in D&D. It's just that mental tasks are generally better handled through role-playing. In CRPGs the problem is that the current design is to make them I win buttons in scripted situations.

I meant in combat. There's not really much benefit to being an intelligent fighter unless you play some rando prestige class or something.

There is, you just have to be smart. It's what ability checks are for, be creative. But then we run into another problem in that the D&D/d20 system is fucking shit. Even at the apex of human intelligence you have what, 20% higher chance to succeed at an int test compared to a common peasant.

 

[Hormalakh]

Thus going back to my previously mentioned non-combat emergent gameplay a la King of Dragon Pass. Make non-combat events worthwhile and make enough of them so that non-combat stats actually matter. So tired of combat-only gameplay. It's about time RPGs expanded to other venues.

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Excidium]

I like how you didn't even mention D&D in your question but he starts blabbering about it. Of course compared to D&D/d20 any system is wonderfully open and well designed. Still there's a difference between making every ability useful and making it all offer the same benefits for everyone.

 

[Space Satan]

It's not my question.

 

[Excidium]

I was referring to Hormalakh

 

[Space Satan]

Ah, my bad

 

[Blaine]

In the 1970s, Gary Gygax et al. knew that being smart, dextrous, and/or charismatic wouldn't actually enable you to miracle your way to victory in hand-to-hand combat versus an enormous, fearless man mountain. Not even DarkUnderlord and his MENSA t-shirt could stand up to an enraged powerlifter who just crashed through his front door. In believable worlds, not every physical, mental, and/or spiritual attribute, talent, or skill need be combat-viable.

On the other hand, I've immensely enjoyed RPGs whose mechanics have focused almost exclusively on combat, so whatever. Hopefully, Josh doesn't overdo it.