Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Obsidian's Pillars of Eternity [BETA RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,786
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
Let's not buy into this tripe. The vast majority of 'difficult' games don't test mental ability, they test bloody-mindedness and the quantity of free time the player has.

If you beat a really difficult game, it isn't because you're a wunderkind, it's because you have nothing more worthwhile to do with your hours.

Should I buy into your oversimplified tripe instead? You should also specify what games you're referring to, as RTS, mobas, flight simulators, twitch shooters, and so on featuring steep learning curves and high skill ceilings can and do test mental acuity, memory, foresight (anticipating moves in advance a la chess), hand-eye coordination, reflexes, dexterity, rhythm, et cetera. I'm going to assume you're mostly referring to sedentary games such as RPGs and turn-based/grand strategy... although your statement isn't even particularly true of turn-based/grand strategy games, since many of the respectable titles in those genres are also genuinely mentally challenging.

So pretty much we're referring to RPGs, here.

I dislike being able to muddle through a game doing whatever I please, winning and making progress regardless, and not being particularly challenged in any way. It's extremely noticeable, especially in RPGs. It does often take longer to complete a difficult RPG, but does it really matter if Game X takes ten or twenty more hours to beat? What's the rush? There's no need to finish a game as quickly as possible. Hell, the longer a good game lasts, the better. Why the "I just don't have enough free time not to casually have my hand held"/"herp, you live in a basement" rigmarole?

I tend to get that "you have nothing worthwhile to do with your time" garbage from the same people who agonize over a $30 game purchase. Meanwhile, I have a career that pays in the low six figures and can afford to blow thousands of dollars on Kickstarters.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,967
I never thought the day would come I'd see RPGCodex staff being apologists for "well, the game has to be easy because otherwise people get discouraged" design arguments.

It's a brave new world!

:roll: Don't you realize that you can't demand games that are targeted towards your niche, and then claim that it's illegitimate to design games for the larger, AAA "niche"?

I'm not mad at Call of Duty or Skyrim for being designed for people who like those games. I just want games that are designed for people like me to exist too.

I'm not demanding nor claiming either such thing. It's perfectly fine for developers to make their games for the largest audience possible, and were I a businessman with no other concerns, I'd do the exact same thing.

I just happen to believe such development principles are unlikely to result in games I'll enjoy. I don't begrudge developers their right to sell out--I just lose any and all interest in their games when they're honest about their target audience. It would be pretty stupid of me to respond to "we're not making games for hardcore gamers" with "I'm a hardcore gamer, therefore I'll totally convince myself your game is actually hardcore, buy it, and end up hugely disappointed!"

And yes, I'm amused that the Codex, a place founded purely to bitch about such developer trends (and the sad smallness it takes certain developers to say, "Well, see, it's valid game design, because... we were told we'd be fired otherwise!") is now defending them. I mean sure, there is a variety of opinion to be had purely because this is an unmoderated forum--actually my favorite aspect of the Codex--but how would Calis and St. Proverbius have reacted to this sort of argument? Maybe I'm an idiot and they would have just been so happy to see another Infinity Engine game* that Sawyer's horrific sayings vis a vis developer priorities wouldn't have warranted a second's thought.

*Actually, if memory serves, St. Proverbius hated Infinity Engine games.


I guess @Zeriel has some kind of idealized indie-type narrative in his mind, where the desired state is that designers create their personal "dream games", with absolutely no regard to who their audience is, whether that audience is mass market or niche. Thing is, I'm pretty sure Josh Sawyer's dream game is not an Infinity Engine-like RPG.

I'm actually kind of afraid of what we might discover if we let all our favorite game designers design their personal dream games instead of making what we want them to make. Who knows how popamole their tastes are?

I don't like indy games, in almost all cases! I harken back to the DOS era, when mainstream developers were small enough that their primary approach for any project was to ask themselves what they'd like to play. It was simply the practical thing to do. There were no QA departments, there were no focus groups telling them what the "market" wanted. You might argue that this was a flawed approach that led to games that didn't match the market, but in my book it was a fantastic way of doing things precisely because it wasn't "targeted" at anything. There's a massive sense of variety in the DOS era. Contrary to public opinions, games weren't particularly hard, either. They just required a little patience of the player.

I think the best way I can think to put it is this. The ideal game requires the player to compromise to make his way through its world and appreciate all it has to offer. The modern game invariably compromises itself, feverishly seeking the player's approval.

Just in case it wasn't clear: this is my personal preference, not an absolute univeral constant that can be derived mathematically. Clearly the market disagrees with my silly, outdated tastes.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
99,629
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
I don't like indy games, in almost all cases! I harken back to the DOS era, when mainstream developers were small enough that their primary approach for any project was to ask themselves what they'd like to play. It was simply the practical thing to do. There were no QA departments, there were no focus groups telling them what the "market" wanted.

Holy nostalgia glasses, batman

The most practical thing to do back then was to look at what was selling the most and clone it. And that happened often. True innovators have always been rare.

At least today those who want to build upon the shoulders of giants have more refined tools at their disposal for determining what the crowd likes than a simple sales chart.

And yes, I'm amused that the Codex, a place founded purely to bitch about such developer trends

The RPG Codex was founded to bitch about developers not making traditional CRPGs anymore (ie, games that WE like), not about developers not chasing their dreams anymore.

Focus groups? I'd be fine with those if they were composed entirely of Codexers and other grognards. That's basically what Kickstarter is about. Your backers, who are more hardcore than the general population, are your focus group.

As for Saint Proverbius, you might be surprised by what he likes.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,719
"I'm going to make a game I find fun to play" as opposed to the current en vogue designer philosophy which is, "If the player doesn't like the game, it's my fault, not theirs."

"I'm going to make a game I find fun to play" can create products with zero challenge or interest to me, but at least it opens up the possibility of genuinely good games. I like the way Tim Cain talks a lot more than I do Sawyer, but whatever. It's all personal preference.
http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/486046061492716765
When it comes to P:E and difficulty, will you make sure that there's a difficulty setting that you, yourself, find interesting enough to play through because it's tactically challenging and not just because it's an Obsidian game? Don't listen to the nubs.
Yes. That's how a lot of the IWD/HoW/TotL/IWD2 encounters were balanced. Kihan (Pak) and I would compare difficulty notes and I would balance my encounters around that. They usually wound up too hard for the average tester, so we dialed them down a bit, but the higher-end/later fights (e.g. Burial Isle) tended to err on the side of increased difficulty.

Like I said before, it's not about one weapon type being strictly better, just mostly better and a lot more user-friendly. Going the DPH route is basically cruise control. You don't need to every worry because your weapon will be adequate, at worst, for any situation. Sure, picking off cazadores might not be as efficient as machine-gunning them down, but it's nowhere near the brick wall that a DPS player encounters against the majority of the elites which happen to be hardened HP-sponges (Super Mutant Masters, Robots, Deathclaws, Radscorpions, Power-Armored foes, etc).
A solution would have to involve nerfing DAM weapons to the point of uselessness (bad) or tuning automatic weapons up to the point where they would outperform all DAM weapons (also bad). Just saying "make a multiple DT system" wouldn't cut it because bullets are bullets. It's also bizarre to me how your complaint is "How dare automatic weapons have to use AP ammo to be effective against armored targets." Well yeah, that's what it's for. Better than AP ammo in Fallout which was virtually indistinguishable from regular bullets thanks to an engine bug or AP ammo from Fallout 2 which was worse in every way than regular ammo (except the AP needler and rockets which were created for Fallout 2 and superior in every way with no drawbacks) because those clowns couldn't understand math. The nigh-invincible endgames were the result of bugs and bad formulas, not intended design.

Also Fallout 1 and 2's multiple DT system didn't mean a damn thing to me. I killed everything easily with bullets until I found plasma weapons then I killed everything easily with plasma weapons.
 

Blaine

Cis-Het Oppressor
Patron
Joined
Oct 6, 2012
Messages
1,874,786
Location
Roanoke, VA
Grab the Codex by the pussy
The RPG Codex was founded to bitch about developers not making traditional CRPGs anymore (ie, games that WE like), not about developers not chasing their dreams anymore.

False:

3ZoA1.png
 

Zed

Codex Staff
Patron
Staff Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
17,068
Codex USB, 2014
RPG Codex was just another one of Rex' many gaming fansites. He had like five hundred at the time.
 

Zeriel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 17, 2012
Messages
13,967
The RPG Codex was founded to bitch about developers not making traditional CRPGs anymore (ie, games that WE like), not about developers not chasing their dreams anymore.

False:

3ZoA1.png

lol

I know this is trolling, but Rex wasn't around when the Codex started, and it was long before DAC lost lots of people, this was around the release of Arcanum.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,719
Josh has some thoughts on damage sponges that I'm sure are tangentially related to boss design in Eternity
topic creator said:
so i think every here has noticed how prevalent armor lords are these days and thinks that they're dumb. however it seems like, to me at least, they went from non-existent to cliche pretty quickly. i don't know why they're so common though. if i had to guess i'd say that it's because so many games are going for a realistic feel and having your dude empty a clip into some dude looks stupid and fake so devs thought up covering the guys in armor so there's at least some diversity with the amount of damage enemies can take while still having some reason that fits with the feel of the game why you can shoot them with mutiple rpgs and because most game devs are uncreative hacks this idea got put into every 2011-13 shooter. what do you guys think. they're pretty dumb but what would be a good alternative to them for more realistic shooters, or maybe realistic shooters are really stupid and should just be done away with. let's hear your armor lords thoughts yall
Josh Sawyer said:
if armor lords promote some different tactic to overcome they're cool. if they just have a ton of health then they're usually not cool!!!
attempted sick burner said:
Old World Blues
Josh Sawyer said:
i didn't do the system design on OWB!!!
Good thing Sawyer's there to keep the absurd out of Absurdian. OWB and pretty much all their other titles had a lot of failures that can be attributed to the complete or near-complete lack of Josh.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,719
I know, just saying Obsidian can write their rape-fics perfectly fine without him. But it is true that the number of rapes in their games dramatically go up whenever he's involved. So it goes.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
I'm surprised he doesn't like regenerating damage sponges. DT is basically an arithmetic minigame for you to play, if the enemies regenerate it adds some consideration about preparing to do burst damage too. That kind of arithmetic doodling was basically what like, Space Rangers combat was about (the space part).
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,831
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Fighters also benefit the most from wearing armor (they have a passive ability that gives them +5 DT when wearing armor or something) so the Fighter class is essentially a regenerating damage sponge. High Deflection, Defensive Mode, Armor = gonna take a while to bring em down and I'll bet there will be a lot of enemy fighters.
 

uaciaut

Augur
Joined
Feb 18, 2013
Messages
505
The only system that was any good is DT, which is like Sawyer's silver design hammer unto video game nails

Unless a later patch fixed things, damage threshold in New Vegas was terribly implemented. Because there was one universal stat for damage threshold (unlike Fallout 1/2, which had multiple ones for different types of damage), it greatly favored weapons with a higher damage-per-shot and punished the use of automatic weaponry, especially in the late game where everyone and their brother had high DT.

And the silly workaround of adding a certain percentage of the damage to "bleed through" hardly helped automatic weapons stay relevant while eliminating one of the most satisfying results of a damage threshold mechanic; feeling like a tank when in high-level armor. No longer could your Vault-Dweller Courier strike a Superman pose against raiders armed with nothing but rifles, impervious to all (but a freak critical) in his power armor.

DT in New Vegas not only discouraged certain playstyles, but failed to bring along one of the most satisfying features of the original DT system in Fallout 1/2. Seems like a total failure in design by my standards. They probably would have been better off just going with Bethesda-style Damage Resistance percentages.

Pretty dumb analysis here.

First off there's enough weapon variety and, more importantly, ammo variety (with how you can craft your own ammo or use different types) that there's plenty of stuff for every situation.

Second if you're playing a guns character and expecting a sub-category of weapons (automatic rifles, SMG's etc) to resolves EVERY situation you're in, that's your problem. It's not the designer's fault to cater to every stupid need, in fact that's the type of behaviour people around here seem to dislike more than anything.
So no, you can't go killing giant radscoprions with your 9 mm machinegun, especially since only +P ammunition gives a -2DT stat, but there are plenty of situations where SMG's are still very useful, including later stages of the game (see: killing cazadors). If you favour shotguns you do need a perk or two (shotgun surgeon, and stay back) to keep them viable into late game but again it's not like shotguns will work perfectly in every situation. Lever-action rifles do tend to be better all-around weapons into late game (see brush gun), but with 5mm jsp (-10dt, dmgx1.3) or AP (-25 fucking DT) or 5.56 mm HL (dmgx1.15) or AP (-15DT), weapons like assault rifles, miniguns, bozar, etc still perform well into late game, with the appropriate perks and skill levels ofc.

So i don't see how the DT mechanic failed as a design in New Vegas.

What fallout 2 did manage to pull off even better was implementing both DT and DR which is why it worked better (not because of different types of damage likes you mentioned, that makes no fucking sense anyway), since DT worked better against low-damage high-fire-rate guns while DR balanced that by having a bigger affect on large bursts of damage and having next to no effect on automatic rifles, SMG's etc.
There is a mod that adds DR to New Vegas though (Cirosan's Classic Overhaul) and a lot of other stuff, fairly successfully imo.
 

Sensuki

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
9,831
Location
New North Korea
Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Tim's updates seem to just be Josh updates written by Tim.

Josh, Adam and Rob's updates are the best. Chris's were both good as well.

Bobby's and Brandon's are pretty slap dash tbh.
 

Gozma

Arcane
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
2,951
When will Fenstermaker take his rightful place as an internet microcelebrity
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom