People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

I've often thought this is the biggest problem in the games industry. Rather than hire a competent programmer on a decent wage - someone who can knock out quality code quickly, they hire the bottom of the barrel for peanuts, then wonder why their games are full of bugs, and simple things take so long to actually develop.

Well got to leave the money for the tumblr writers.

Fixed.

 

[JBro]

Makes me embarrassed to call myself a feminist.

Not the rape and abuse you most likely commit as a feminist?

 

[Lahey]

I'm not sure what it says about me that I'm more comfortable trawling through the cesspool that is Codex than reading shit like this.

It says that you must be some kind of alt-right neo-nazi with internalized oppression who supports the patriarchy and are on the wrong side of history, obviously.

Why the fuck do videogames attract such shit feminist analysis? Is it that the smarter ones got smarter things to worry about?

Yes. Anyone serious about their activism (feminist or otherwise) doesn't waste time pontificating on the internet to garner e-points and the approval of strangers when that time is better spent engaging at the local level where one can make tangible impact.

 

[Lexx]

Rage indeed.

http://archive.is/hl84k

Great, now I have cancer.

 

[Morality Games]

Theories about corruption are fun, but this is most likely what happened:

Corruption sounds a bit harsh.
I didn't try to suggest their corrupt because developers are trying to leverage their connections. I thought more of them doing a friend favour without a prompt by anybody.
[Or because they are invested in the story of Obsidian as the underdog developer vs the greedy publishers]

They were told Chris' statements were inaccurate but "no further comment for now".

Yes - but there are other parties involved Paradox, former employees.
How is it possible that nobody is willing to comment at least anonymously as a current or former employee.

It helps that our thread is so over-the-top that it's easy to believe it must be a bunch of crazy nonsense. Chris is behaving in a pretty unprecedented way here.

Okay - so we have two possible stories: either one about Chris the ex-co-owner of Obsidian going utterly mad - which would be pretty newsworthy - or one about the respected writer of classic titles like Prey 2™ and FTL™ talking about his past bad working conditions during his time at Obsidian. Chris is not some unknown quantity in the industry that just starts spilling the beans.
If they aren't comfortable sharing the allegations of financial tampering for now, they could interview (-> gamestar) him about situations like the disowning process.
Hell - they could quote the German gamestar interview itself if they cared about sourcing or non-edified conduct. A week full of a complete lack of coverage seems just very unnatural.

The gaming press naturally isn't critical of the industry because of the "access for favorable coverage" that affects all media. There are countless factors that multiply this effect, such as the fact that games are privately owned, "for profit", marketing-driven enterprise rather than a public service (where there is a moral, practical, and legal obligation imperative to wedge the access door open). Generally fire departments are eager to let the public know about problems because that pressures local government to give them more money (the fire department can't go out of business), but if a private business lets the public know about problems, then their investors will flee.

Another factor is that management and production is chronically shitty in the gaming industry (and in entertainment in general, see Harvey Weinstein scandal as an example), as should be expected of any industry that places sensitive artistic people alongside profit-orientated businessmen, so why bother reporting on Obsidian's problems when Electronic Arts is sneezing through failed studious like tissue paper? There's no good place to start when it comes to taking on corruption in the games industry.

 

[i.Razor]

Fallout 2 was the better game.

It was.

Although it had alredy developed base. But creating Fallout 1 from scratch (design, concept, etc.) - team creativity level was outstanding.

 

[MRY]

Chris Avellone: I was surprised to read your recent remark that "we didn’t have much choice in making the Nameless One a male, which I didn’t support." I assume that means the original Last Rites concept TNO was female? (Or would the player have chosen gender? I had always figured that the predefined TNO was a jRPG-inspired decision to break from the norm in make-your-avatar or main-character's-a-cipher wRPGs, so I assume not...) At what stage did your vision of a female TNO get overridden?

The reason I ask is that it's impossible for me to imagine how PS:T would work with choose-your-gender or with a female TNO. The entire story is a male story -- a male power fantasy painted over (and peeling back from) a tragedy of male hubris and ultimate powerlessness. The flaws of TNO's prior incarnations are particularly male flaws. So, thematically, it would be as hard for me to imagine swapping TNO's gender as it would be to imagine swapping, say, Seymour Levov's gender in American Pastoral or Willy Loman's in Death of a Salesman. Aside from themes, I'm not sure how the character interactions would've worked -- I assume the companion roster would've had to be totally different, since while there are Betty-and-Veronica/whore-Madonna targets for the male gaze in Annah and Grace, the male companions (a skull, a hollow suit of armor, a boxy robot, a bald and liver-spotted old man) seem designed precisely so that no female could want them. And it seems like self-scarification and suicide would've had very different meaning in the context of a female TNO than a male one. So did all of the plot and character design after management nixed your idea for a female protagonist? If so, any chance we could hear what the arc and themes for the original female-TNO version of Last Rites was going to be? (Does a vision doc still exist?) IMO it would be fascinating -- an incredible bit of alternate history that would offset some of the grimmer revelations in this thread.

Also, this casts the Last Rites Vision Doc in a whole new light. Was the whole "babes" thing -- "This game will have lots of babes that make the player go 'wow.' There will be fiendish babes, human babes, angelic babes, asian babes, and even undead babes" "AND MORE BABES!" etc. -- basically a way of thumbing your nose at management's insistence that PS:T be a male, rather than female, power fantasy? I assume your original vision wouldn't have had babes.

(I realize this is not precisely on topic for this thread, but as long as you're sharing tales of yore, I'd love to hear this one.)

 

[CyberWhale]

AND MORE BABES! RADICAL ROLE PLAYING FANTASY GAME AVAILABLE IN YOUR STORES RIGHT NOW. CALL 66-666-6 AND SAY "WHOA DUDE" TO GET AN AWESOME TALKING SKULL FREE OF CHARGE.

Fucking 90s man.

 

[jaydee2k]

Fallout 2 was the better game.

It was.

Although it had alredy developed base. But creating Fallout 1 from scratch (design, concept, etc.) - team creativity level was outstanding.

Haha you fags never get tired claiming this shit.

 

[FeelTheRads]

I don't see how PST would work with TNO as a female. It would have to be completely different*. So, unless he means the decision was set in stone from the start and he then wrote the game based on the male TNO, this doesn't make sense and seems quite pointless to even mention it.
If it was always supposed to be man, regardless of who decided it, just let it be and don't try to save face and make excuses now to appeal to some empty-heads.

And an option to choose gender makes even less sense.

*Not only, this, but worth mentioning I think that whoever it was that decided TNO to be a man would probably also not like a lesbian love story between TNO and Deionarra.
Would you have turned Deionarra into Deionarr? Huh?

 

[Roguey]

There's a heavily-inspired-by-Torment NWN mod called Revenant that does change the sex/personality of your ghost lover depending on which sex you choose.

 

[iguana_trader]

Can't wait for a sequel to PST by Beamdog and Avellone.
Planetscape:Torurnament 2: The Blood War
*Updated my journal
Quest: Find-fall-from-grace and inquire about the Nameless One
<Vrischika's Curiosity Shop - interior>
Vrischika: Yes, I know where she is, but I need to see how much you care to find her.
The Genderless One: Listen you capitalistic b*tch, we spent loads of money in your shop, tell us where the succubi is!
Vrischika: Fine, you are scaring away my loyal customers! Go to the Hive and other streetwalkers should give you more precise directions. I reckon you'll have no problems communicating with these lowlifes.
Shaniqua: *smacks lips* yo bettuh tell us where she iz u blu frik!
Vrischika: Grace is a lunatic who wanders throughout the Hive! She has no home! Get out, you ruin my business!
<the party exits the shop>
<The Hive - Office of Vermin and Disease Control - exterior>
Shaniqua: Hey, look xir! Wat iz dat commotion 'bout!
<The office is surrounded by local prostitutes and punks. All look downwards, one man is howling. Genderless One notices a bloody blob on the ground.
Fall-from-grace is now an obese blue haired succubi who died by struggling to take off from the top of the Office of Vermin and Disease Control.>
Shaniqua: Shieet!
Forte - the floating skull, formerly known as Shilandra: I guess she really FELL this time! Get it ?!
Shaniqua: U stoopid skull, who gonna tell us 'bout the Blood War and that walking corpse guy!
The Genderless One: Girls, it doesn't matter! We are the Blood War - we carry it inside and release upon the world once a month! It is the source of our power and it shall lead us through the planes!
Shaniqua! Open your legs and the portal - we're going through!
FIN

 

[Harold]

Where were these Asian babes the Last Rites vision-doc talks about?

Chris Avellone maybe that's the real reason Feargus held a grudge towards you all these years - he felt ripped off.

All these years he's been waiting for one thing from you.

The unfulfilled promise of 1999 - asian babes

 

[Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss]

Chris Avellone: I was surprised to read your recent remark that "we didn’t have much choice in making the Nameless One a male, which I didn’t support."

 

[Diablo169]

Chris Avellone

Can you elaborate please on how much work you have contributed to Omensight:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/455820/Omensight/

I'd be interested to hear any other tidbits you have on the title too if possible

 

[MRY]

Harold Here's the vision doc from after Chris was forced to abandon the original female protagonist vision. Not sure whether there was, or still is, the vision doc for the original concept before management intervened.

Blakemoreland Hybrid Boss iguana_trader Chris has never written a bad or shallow story, so I'm not sure you would think that the original female power fantasy overlaying female regret would've been any worse than what PS:T was. If anything, I would assume that his original vision was stronger than the compromise that PS:T wound up.

Thinking about this last night, I wonder if this is what happened. In 1995, Chris conceives a player-character-centric, personal tale about an immortal female protagonist traveling through Sigil and the planes, a wRPG that would draw upon jRPG and literary influences: the original incarnation of PS:T. He describes this idea in his 1995 job interview. He then develops it in his head over the next couple years, and, in 1997, he goes to pitch the female-Last Rites epic to Feargus. Feargus listens, and gets quite excited about the basic ideas (Planescape, literary, personal), but wants to put his own stamp on it. As Chris has described, Feargus's habit is/was to read licensed, low-brow fantasy and force writers to incorporate their concepts into the RPG projects they're working on. ([1] [2]) Feargus tells Chris, "I just read a great book, just the kind of literary inspiration you've got in mind, and I think you should restructure Last Rites' story to incorporate its basic plot and characters and themes." Hands over Troy Denning's Pages of Pain, a Planescape novel about an amnesiac zombie, with a tiefling companion, seeking to recover his memories and undo his betrayal of a woman who loved him. ([1]) (We know that Feargus/Interplay was a big fan of Troy Denning's work because just after Feargus came on board Denning was later hired to novelize Stonekeep.) Adds, "And make sure there's lots of babes, I don't know why you thought a game with an unattractive female protagonist could sell." With a sigh, Chris goes forth and makes a masterpiece, but a different masterpiece from the original one. Makes me wonder whether Ravel is a shadow of the protagonist of the original, pre-Feargus/PoP concept?

 

[Harold]

Harold Here's the vision doc from after Chris was forced to abandon the original female protagonist vision. Not sure whether there was, or still is, the vision doc for the original concept before management intervened.

I read the doc beforehand. I was making an - admittedly overcomplicated - joke about there being no 'asian babes' in the game, whereas the boxes for 'fiendish, angelic, undead babes' were ticked.

 

[Viata]

Thanks TT1, I sadly have no time to read all those 200 pages on interview thread for now.

 

[iguana_trader]

MRY - I see your point (I think) but what I am mainly getting at is that making a female power fantasy story now and in the America of the past would be much different. I'd wager there was a chance that PST could be played from the eyes of a Kreia-like character which I consider as the best female character in gaming. The other thing is, even if the muscular protagonist and sexy babes art direction were imposed by Feargus, then I must say it kinda works very well. Someone in the team connected these outrageous visions together, and maybe that visual direction makes the darker story work so well. I dunno. Besides "Last Rites" already mentions romances and sexytime.
In the modern political climate one has to meet certain criteria - .i.e. modern Lara Croft - she became a boring (visually) schizo (as a character) who is afraid to kill and after the cutscene ends massacres 50 dudes with an axe. I feel like there is no space for a deconstruction of a female power fantasy character, even though a strong independent woman archetype is already overplayed.
If characters like Kreia, Ravel, Anna, Fall are deemed problematic by some people and the author who created them feels obliged to "set the record straight" with them then it makes me feel disheartened. It's like someone created a template and the artist has to follow to appease some group(s). Besides, as it was mentioned before, what would have happened to characters like Deionarra. Deionarra is a very feminine woman (er, ghost) and it turns out that is "problematic". Turning her bisexual would feel forced, and that comes from a fan of Ancient Greece parties.
I guess a female character could work well, but would need a game for herself. Otherwise you end up with a Dragon Age: Inquisition story, but as I said I have no hope of a good deconstruction of a female power fantasy trope - I already feel the potential cringe.
I hope I am making some sense.

 

[Jedi Exile]

The Nameless One was originally intended to be female? Holy shit, I didn't know that.

 

[Crescent Hawk]

You see iguana, there will never be anything that its not problematic at this point, these people are the very definition of traitors and resentment piles of shit. Females can be feminine like Deionarra and still be interesting and have value, a good feminine character can still kickass and do stuff a man cant do as well like a woman like being a Nausicaa to Odysseus salt drenched wounds.

These people want to abort and destroy the world because the self loathing can only be controlled by being buried beneath mountains of social massage and cookies.

I am glad PST is the way it is.

 

[MRY]

"Last Rites" already mentions romances and sexytime.

As I understand from Chris Avellone's recent post on the Vice forums ("we didn’t have much choice in making the Nameless One a male, which I didn’t support"), the Last Rites vision doc we've seen came after management required the story to be changed to be about a male protagonist and babes, rather than the female-centric story that Chris originally pitched. That vision doc clearly came after TNO had been locked into being male. (There's no way that vision document could reflect a "choose your gender" iteration.)

I guess a female character could work well, but would need a game for herself. Otherwise you end up with a Dragon Age: Inquisition story, but as I said I have no hope of a good deconstruction of a female power fantasy trope - I already feel the potential cringe.
I hope I am making some sense.

I totally understand what you're saying. (Not sure I agree, not having played DA:I.) That's why I assume that the original 1995 vision (the pre-managerial intervention, possibly pre-Pages of Pain vision) was a different story entirely, different companions, different dilemmas, different themes. The tragedy to me is that if Chris had been allowed in the 1990s to tell his female-centric adventure, not about some babe but about a weary old woman, it would've been utterly groundbreaking. (It would still be groundbreaking today.) If you think about the huge impact the male-power-fantasy PS:T had on the industry -- inspiring many (male) players to go on to want to write their own stories -- and on this forum, it becomes kind of mind-boggling to wonder what would've happened if the original female vision had been pursued. Still Codex's top game of all time? If so, how would the Codex be different?

I know people have an aversion to 2016-on female-centric RPGs, but the story Chris wanted to tell in 1995 would've been very different. In the same way the Codex can enjoy and appreciate, say, Kristin Lavransdatter -- a story written by a strong woman about a strong woman -- it seems like the Codex would've enjoyed and appreciated the strong-woman version of Last Rites.

That said, I feel like we're getting ahead of things, since all we know now is Chris's basic statement that originally the vision had a female protagonist (or a choice of gender), and he objected to having a male protagonist. So I'll stop speculating till we can hear what the story was. :/

 

[ScrotumBroth]

I just want to say all this makes easier to understand why PoE1 botched so hard, why Avellone's name was a Kickstarter goal in every RPG since and why nobody would ever answer my questions on Avellone's involvement on official Kickstarter pages. Especially ones pertaining to him being a Lead, or a Founder, but really just a freelance writer. Example, Kingmaker.

 

[Atomkilla]

This may be slightly offtopic - but how many RPGs exist where you play as a well-written female character?
And I mean female character by default, not a game where you can chose character's sex and build it from there.

I'm really intrigued by this ATM as I don't think I've considered it ever before. Almost every RPG I remember playing was either male character or customizable character. Not a single female-fronted one comes to mind (on the other hand, I'm sleepy and running on caffeine fumes, my brain isn't in top shape). Well, Horizon Zero Dawn does, but I have trouble calling that game an RPG.

 

[Neanderthal]

This may be slightly offtopic - but how many RPGs exist where you play as a well-written male character?

I'm joking but i'm also not, usually the protagonist is so vague and larp friendly that you can't really call him a character, most are almost inhuman with their lack of flaws, lack of challenges that define them, and are mostly resigned to infantile power fantasies that are utterly unearned because they have faced no situations that warrant growth and the overcoming of adversity.

Case in point: Elves, nuff said.