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People News ObsidiLeaks: The Chris Avellone May of Rage Archive

Roguey

Codex Staff
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Yeah I remember when Dommi Sotto (Merilwhatever) tried to do a female TNO mod because she refused to play as a male character and gave up because it was too much work.

Whether it succeeds at that is another story.

I personally find Handmaiden and Visas more interesting than Disciple. I'd also agree with MRY that the romance with Safiya feels more thematically appropriate than the romance with Gann, though Gann's was all right (he's certainly more entertaining than Disciple).
 

Prime Junta

Guest
I'd also agree with MRY that the romance with Safiya feels more thematically appropriate than the romance with Gann, though Gann's was all right.

I thought both romances in MotB were record-scratch moments. Gann's perhaps a bit less than Safiya's. Decent by cRPG standards but cringey nevertheless.

Unconsummated ghost romance best romance
 

Roguey

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I thought both romances in MotB were record-scratch moments. Gann's perhaps a bit less than Safiya's. Decent by cRPG standards but cringey nevertheless.
:what:

You're remnants of two lovers, it makes perfect sense to me.

qti7MZM.jpg


I loved this line, felt right.
 

Prime Junta

Guest
You're remnants of two lovers, it makes perfect sense to me.

It does on that level. The development didn't work for me though. It felt like a deepening friendship which then took a screeching turn into romance right on cue before the endgame. Safiya is a no-bullshit but emotionally reticent type, and it's really hard to write a romance for that type of character.
 

Neanderthal

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I was just glad in Torment to be playing a half nekkid, visually distinct barbaric looking fucker again. Really tired of rpgs where your characters look same as every other fucker, I like the visually distinct, strangely enough arpgs do this better than rpgs (if theres any difference) lately.
 

Roguey

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It does on that level. The development didn't work for me though. It felt like a deepening friendship which then took a screeching turn into romance right on cue before the endgame. Safiya is a no-bullshit but emotionally reticent type, and it's really hard to write a romance for that type of character.

I remember mutual flirtation with her throughout the entire game. :M

I guess if she's going for you at the end when you've only been just friendly it can be jarring.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Those antler helms. Never fail to amuse. :lol:

Wouldn't feel out of place to have your character talk about his Pokemon collection while wearing those.
 

ERYFKRAD

Barbarian
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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Those antler helms. Never fail to amuse. :lol:

Wouldn't feel out of place to have your character talk about his Pokemon collection while wearing those.
Not far off to imagine a basement dwelling Spirit eater wear those antlers and go on and on about the spirit collection he's built up.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
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Hm. It's even harder for me to imagine a gender-choosing PS:T than it is to imagine the game with a female protagonist. The latter is a different, but definable game. I don't really see how you can have the same plot arc for both. "We're going to tell a highly personal story, the same way, regardless of TNO's gender" doesn't seem likely to work?
Have you played Kotor 2, also by MCA, by any chance? Because that game (which incidentally is also about a protagonist haunted by their past) attempts to do that to some extent, with your gender choice affecting whether one of two gender-exclusive companions can join you and changing your interaction with some of the antagonists. Whether it succeeds at that is another story.
Yes, of course. But there's are reasons why the PC in KOTOR2 is much, much less memorable than TNO, and this is one of them. The less defined the PC's personality, the more the backstory (and to some extent the story) becomes about things that were done to or for that character, and much less about the character's own actions. Of course, memorability of the PC is only one (perhaps small) facet of what makes for a good RPG.
 

Murk

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Jan 17, 2008
Messages
13,459
Kult: Heretic Kingdoms features a female protag, and while not well written on the scope of PS:T, it is pretty decent in its limited scope. Effective, I guess you can say.

I would genuinely love to play a game as Ravel.
 

Chippy

Arcane
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6,241
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Increasing amount of alcohol may be required to read this thread. In a few day's time I can see myself trying to come to terms with certain info like: "Whoooaaa - TNO was really a babe instead of a dude, and maybe it was my own inherent misogony (or repressed homosexuality) that manifested him as a dude all those years ago...a big sexy...scarred dude."
So I'm reaching for the self ejection lever and a suitable safe space before it all possibly gets nuked from orbit. Hat's off to all of you who can stay on target. :bro:
 
Unwanted

Micormic

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I already didn't like their games but I was always under the impression they ran a straight ship. Surprising to say the least.
 

MRY

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Hm. It's even harder for me to imagine a gender-choosing PS:T than it is to imagine the game with a female protagonist. The latter is a different, but definable game. I don't really see how you can have the same plot arc for both. "We're going to tell a highly personal story, the same way, regardless of TNO's gender" doesn't seem likely to work?

Anyway, hopefully Chris will stop in to sort it out. It would be nice to hear how the plan was going to work. (The Last Rites vision doc is clearly meant for a single-sex TNO, so the decision must've been made before then.)

Was away from computer for part of the weekend (family issues), but did want to say before the doc was even written, there were marketing department concerns (although not from Fargo) and a resource decisions that were involved as well - there was no way we could have done the range of models like BG, for example, and the management, marketing, and resource hurdles were known before the vision doc was written to pitch to Interplay.

Lengthier explanation to follow, though, those are good questions.
Thanks! I look forward to hearing it.

As is often the case in art, it seems like the lack of resources was a cause of, rather than impediment to, the game's achievements. The decision to do Chrono Trigger/jRPG style fixed sprites with unique silhouettes is a large reason why PS:T's characters are so memorable. That's partly visual, but the visual distinctions significantl informed the substantive characters, too.
 

Atomkilla

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Jul 26, 2011
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715
The existence of those silhouettes never occurred to me up until this point. I feel weird now.
 

agris

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As is often the case in art, it seems like the lack of resources was a cause of, rather than impediment to, the game's achievements.

Scarcity also breeds resourcefulness on the player's part, one reason why game mechanics that restrict player choice, such as AD&D 1/2, create such memorable character builds and moments. Nothing is special when everything is special etc etc.
 

Peacefriend

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Dec 16, 2014
Messages
39
What was the procedure of this "deownering"?

Right now, I'm getting the impression that "deownering" was something that Feargus could do by his own authority, without the agreement of other owners, with no limits. That cannot be right? If that's really how it worked, ... how did he get this authority?
 
Self-Ejected

RNGsus

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What was the procedure of this "deownering"?

Right now, I'm getting the impression that "deownering" was something that Feargus could do by his own authority, without the agreement of other owners, with no limits. That cannot be right? If that's really how it worked, ... how did he get this authority?
Likely by chummy people gathering together for a project and never getting the lawyers out straight away.
 

Lahey

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
What was the procedure of this "deownering"?

Right now, I'm getting the impression that "deownering" was something that Feargus could do by his own authority, without the agreement of other owners, with no limits. That cannot be right? If that's really how it worked, ... how did he get this authority?
MCA claimed Feargus, Parker, and Monahan often voted as a bloc.

I will also say because Darren agrees with Feargus when pressured or frightened, that does make him very valuable when voting needs to be done, and it was good of Feargus to choose him to be one of the production triad of owners and give him a large % of shares to make that vote worthwhile.
While the owners could perhaps vote against something happening, or vote for something happening, this wasn't done very often in practice (owner meetings weren't run as official meetings, and as mentioned before, Parker and Darren would usually agree with Feargus, so speaking up was largely useless and just got others angry at you for challenging a position).
He described each owner at length as well as their relationships to each other. Search the thread for posts by MCA including "Feargus", "Parker", "Darren" and "Jones".
 
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Peacefriend

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Messages
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What was the procedure of this "deownering"?

Right now, I'm getting the impression that "deownering" was something that Feargus could do by his own authority, without the agreement of other owners, with no limits. That cannot be right? If that's really how it worked, ... how did he get this authority?
MCA claimed Feargus, Parker, and Monahan often voted as a bloc.

I will also say because Darren agrees with Feargus when pressured or frightened, that does make him very valuable when voting needs to be done, and it was good of Feargus to choose him to be one of the production triad of owners and give him a large % of shares to make that vote worthwhile.
While the owners could perhaps vote against something happening, or vote for something happening, this wasn't done very often in practice (owner meetings weren't run as official meetings, and as mentioned before, Parker and Darren would usually agree with Feargus, so speaking up was largely useless and just got others angry at you for challenging a position).
He described each owner at length as well as their relationships to each other. Search the thread for posts by MCA including "Feargus", "Parker", "Darren" and "Jones".

I did read the relevant posts (I read almost all of the Google Docs); it is not clear to me that the voting in your quotes described the "deownering" procedure.

But, if it does: I mean, if everyone (including Monahan and Parker, according to MCA) agreed that Feargus was a moron who only limited the company, why didn't everyone gang up to "deowner" Feargus?
 

Lahey

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Grab the Codex by the pussy
I did read the relevant posts (I read almost all of the Google Docs); it is not clear to me that the voting in your quotes described the "deownering" procedure.
From the GameStar interview:
- Can you give any more details on how the deownering process worked? It sounds like it was surprisingly easy for Obsidian to strip an owner and co-founder of his rights without compensation, didn't you have any sort of protection or leverage in your initial contract?

There was no leverage – there were five owners, and I was among the two who had the least shares. The other owners never spoke to me about the issue, it was all done through Feargus, and championed by Feargus.
MCA wasn't part of this process for obvious reasons, and therefore hasn't spoken to specifics. Unless one of the other owners speaks publicly on this issue, which I doubt, then we're unlikely to know exact details. I do think it's safe to assume they met and discussed it, if not necessarily voting in a formal manner.

Peacefriend said:
But, if it does: I mean, if everyone (including Monahan and Parker, according to MCA) agreed that Feargus was a moron who only limited the company, why didn't everyone gang up to "deowner" Feargus?
MCA never claimed the bolded so far as I can tell. He did say Parker and Feargus argued often (1), that the other owners would get "extremely frustrated" at the lack of long-term planning (2), and that Jones "called Feargus on shit, and was sometimes able to get him to back down", but would often go with the flow because he'd also been threatened by Feargus (3, 4, 5).

As to why they never pushed Feargus out, your answer is as good as mine - which is (assuming MCA's descriptions are accurate) that we're talking about a coward (Monahan) and apathetic (Jones) who were waiting for payouts, and an incompetent fool (Parker) who liked to be the boss man. 3 stooges material. MCA claimed Feargus is unethical, short-sighted, petty, and many other things, but also credited his relationship with Bioware for "arguably making Black Isle what it was" and that it "helped Obsidian get on its feet" (6). As CEO/CFO Feargus has kept Obsidian from bankruptcy while numerous other mid-size studios went under, and I think this fear of closure before being bought up is the driving force behind maintaining the status quo.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
Joined
Oct 7, 2005
Messages
2,989
MRY - I see your point (I think) but what I am mainly getting at is that making a female power fantasy story now and in the America of the past would be much different. I'd wager there was a chance that PST could be played from the eyes of a Kreia-like character which I consider as the best female character in gaming. The other thing is, even if the muscular protagonist and sexy babes art direction were imposed by Feargus, then I must say it kinda works very well. Someone in the team connected these outrageous visions together, and maybe that visual direction makes the darker story work so well. I dunno. Besides "Last Rites" already mentions romances and sexytime.
In the modern political climate one has to meet certain criteria - .i.e. modern Lara Croft - she became a boring (visually) schizo (as a character) who is afraid to kill and after the cutscene ends massacres 50 dudes with an axe. I feel like there is no space for a deconstruction of a female power fantasy character, even though a strong independent woman archetype is already overplayed.
If characters like Kreia, Ravel, Anna, Fall are deemed problematic by some people and the author who created them feels obliged to "set the record straight" with them then it makes me feel disheartened. It's like someone created a template and the artist has to follow to appease some group(s). Besides, as it was mentioned before, what would have happened to characters like Deionarra. Deionarra is a very feminine woman (er, ghost) and it turns out that is "problematic". Turning her bisexual would feel forced, and that comes from a fan of Ancient Greece parties.
I guess a female character could work well, but would need a game for herself. Otherwise you end up with a Dragon Age: Inquisition story, but as I said I have no hope of a good deconstruction of a female power fantasy trope - I already feel the potential cringe.
I hope I am making some sense.

The issue with writing a female power fantasy in the classic sense, is that women don't generally seem to identify with it, the way men do with male power fantasies. The most popular female writers of fantasy - and I use that term to stand for any sort of fantasy, not just elves and wizards - generally produce resistance literature, which positions its female characters as members of the oppressed, who rise up to either over throw or control the system around them by subverting its power - usually specifically male power. Novels like Twilight, Hunger Games, and Divergent uniformly feature a female protagonist who, at the start of the novel, is oppressed by male power and who, through the course of the novels, learn to manipulate and control it. The underlying assumption, at the beginning of these stories, is a position of weakness, not a position of strength.

This is different from your typical strong, independent woman cliche, where the character is presented basically as a male hero, but with a vagina. Sure, these cliches, on occasions, make references to the resistance narrative, but these are secondary and trivial - ie a female hero might toss out a sentence about how she's no worse than a man, but it's not felt because the story gives no basis for thinking she was ever in a position of weakness, to begin with.

It can be hypothesized that the female experience in the West, as it currently exists, must sympathize with the condition of being oppressed, such that women love literature featuring protagonists who are oppressed, and who rise up to cast off that oppression. To this end, simply substituting a woman into a male power fantasy and changing the genders, adding more romance, etc., will not necessarily work. Sure, I imagine there are women who would enjoy this sort of story, but most women seem to have a different preference in terms of protagonists they identify with.
 
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DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,574
In my limited experience working in the private sector all my bosses were lying, scheming arseholes who would do or say anything to turn a dime, so I'm not shocked that Obsidian is run by a bunch of flawed individuals who don't handle everything thrown at them in a perfectly ethical and transparent manner. Also being a leader will mean that you are open to criticism and will actively be disliked by some.

I would say that at this stage though we are only getting MCA's perspective. It's entirely possible that his own behavior was affecting his co-owners to the extent that they felt "disowning" him was the only remaining course of action open to them. As with a divorce, you probably don't take such a step lightly or without the belief that having him out would make the current situation better. Now of course "better" from their perspective might mean they could then carry on their nefarious ways without MCA's moral compass to hinder them, but the reality is probably more complex than that.

Whatever you think of Feargus & Co. they've managed to stay in business in a notoriously cut-throat industry for more than a decade and even produce some decent titles in that time, so they must be doing something right.
 

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