The Witcher Officialsky Witcherovda 2 Impressiovna Threadskaia

[Vault Dweller]

Combat is different and less stat-driven, but encounter design is way better...

What encounter design?

It also has the better C&C. Yes, DA had some nice ones, but complaining that W2 has "fake consequences" while liking the C&C in DA is retarded. Granted, I'm still in the first chapter so I can't bring too many examples of the W2 C&C yet....

Right. You're still in the first chapter but you just KNOW that the consequences are real and mind-fucking-blowing. They have to be, right?

In W2, I kept Aryan (or however he's spelled) alive and then when I met him again in the dungeon and let him help me escape, he set fire to the oilstores, setting the castle afire. This was a consequence I did not expect at all...

What consequence? The castle being set on fire? Wow. If you save him, you meet him in the dungeon. If you kill him, you meet his mom. Red shirt vs green shirt. You must have liked Alpha Protocol a lot then. So many choices, so many consequences. Hey, did you know that you don't have to kill that guy in Saudi Arabia? For real.

... and the situation was not a "YOU MUST CHOOSE" one but merely a situation where you had two ways to solve a problem, and the way you solved it would later have a consequence.

:facepalm:

 

[Vault Dweller]

I wrote down a couple of them since I was thinking about maybe doing a review. But are you really sure you'd like them posted just now? They're extremely spoilerish.

Go ahead.

Edit:

While I'm waiting, I'd like to ask a question. In Ch2 (sided with Roche) you are told about the conspiracy, get a coin from either the father of a young soldier or the drunk, then go to the brothel, give the coin, the girl unlocks the hatch, you go down, get a forced conversation with the guy wearing that fancy armor of courage, no matter what you say, you fight.

Then in the journal it says something like Geralt ran into the conspirators and killed them in self defense ('cause good ol' Geralt will never kill people for the lulz), because the conspirators were afraid he's a spy and attacked him and there was nothing he could do but kill them.

How very:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/images/news/Quest%201.JPG

So, my question is, is there any way to join the conspirators and not fight this guy? If you side with the elf, perhaps? Is there a peaceful way to get the armor? Thanks in advance.

 

[Grunker]

Red shirt vs green shirt.

Oh, you mean like killing Connor, sacrificing someone to into the fade for him, or travel to the circle and save him via their help? That's not just red shirt vs. green shirt, no sir-ee. That's fucking nothing at all instead. A REAL choice, that one.

:facepalm: urself

EDIT: omw to play some oldschool D&D dungeon-crawl. Will post when we're finished tonight or tommorrow. Do note that some of my examples will pretty much spoil most of the story for you

 

[MMXI]

Who gives a fuck? The best RPGs have fuck all C&C. Arguing about which of two terrible RPGs has the most C&C is pretty retarded. But don't mind me. Carry on, boys.

 

[Futile Rhetoric]

Cast Quen the first chance you get and you're good for 30 seconds.

That really isn't how Quen works, unless I'm missing something.

 

[Grunker]

Cast Quen the first chance you get and you're good for 30 seconds.

That really isn't how Quen works, unless I'm missing something.

It is. I beat the game on hard by casting level 2 Quen and hitting right-click until I won.

Pretty sure you can't do that with level 1 Quen though.

 

[MasPingon]

I think the point VD made is this:

Yesterday (I'm in act II now, Iorveth's path) I got swarmed by 12 or so Nekkers in the wilderness. The fuckers appeared from underground and surrounded me before I could react. I was starting to say bye-bye to Geralt and wonder when did I save last, but it turned out the upgrades to my skills and inventory made me almost invulnerable to their hits (I went for all the armor and damage resistance increasing skills and gear) - as in I got 5 damage instead of 30 per hit. It took a couple of minutes, but soon the Nekkers were all dead.

I would like to see someone do this if they did not upgrade skills and /or inventory. Hell, I'd like to see someone do this if going by a different skillup route (damage res. was crucial to survive).

So yeah, I'd say player's skill alone is not enough to beat the game. Character's skill (and gear) matters as much.

You'd like to see someone do what, my good sir? Do exactly what you did: get surrounded and fight standing still? Yeah, you'd probably need good skills and gear.

Is it possible to beat them without skills? I haven't fought this particular fight, but I'm pretty sure you can. Force push one to create an opening, slash and roll. Cast Quen the first chance you get and you're good for 30 seconds, which is plenty of time to kill at least 2/3 of them.

I always respected you opinion VD, but this is simply not true. Basic Quen vanish after you've been hit two times, basic number of vigor points is 2. Basic vigor regeneration is pretty slow, so I don't see how can you do that. You would have to kill every creature separately, cause of lack of group style skill. It would take forever

In Gothic 2 and Risen you could beat every opponent just by your(player) sklill, I'm pretty sure you could finish even FO with basic PC skills

While I'm waiting, I'd like to ask a question. In Ch2 (sided with Roche) you are told about the conspiracy, get a coin from either the father of a young soldier or the drunk, then go to the brothel, give the coin, the girl unlocks the hatch, you go down, get a forced conversation with the guy wearing that fancy armor of courage, no matter what you say, you fight.

Then in the journal it says something like Geralt ran into the conspirators and killed them in self defense ('cause good ol' Geralt will never kill people for the lulz), because the conspirators were afraid he's a spy and attacked him and there was nothing he could do but kill them.

How very:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/images/news/Quest%201.JPG

So, my question is, is there any way to join the conspirators and not fight this guy? If you side with the elf, perhaps? Is there a peaceful way to get the armor? Thanks in advance.

Sadly, there are no such things in TW like "a little choices". You have to do things the way you are "suppose" to do them. Choices in TW reminds me more of interactive movie, then choices we get used to in "hardcore" crpgs

 

[abija]

I'm not saying that you can't build a more powerful character. I'm saying it's unnecessary and the game doesn't force you to. See the difference?

You're not forced but the penalty is extremely long and tedious fights.
It's exactly the same in DA or how I beat 30% (or maybe less but it certainly felt long) of Risen without spending points and then after dumping all points into magic I could do same dmg in melee using a good staff.

Using that as an argument why those games are RPGs and TW2 is not it's just rubbish.
Stats and character development do matter. Geralt even scales far better than the opponents.
If the game lets you bypass it when you are really persistent and bored is completely irrelevant. That's like saying some games aren't party based because you could solo them with broken builds/chars/mechanics.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I always respected you opinion VD, but this is simply not true. Basic Quen vanish after you've been hit two times, basic number of vigor points is 2. Basic vigor regeneration is pretty slow, so I don't see how can you do that. You would have to kill every creature separately, cause of lack of group style skill. It would take forever

Nekkers die fast. I had no problems whatsoever fighting 5-6 nekkers at a time in Ch1 (I know he said that he was in Ch2; is there level scaling?). I have 2 vigor points, basic vigor regen, etc. My strategy, if you can call it that, is moving constantly, striking and rolling away or to another enemy. I didn't pay attention to when Quen vanishes, but I do know that it makes a noticeable difference.

 

[Mrowak]

While I'm waiting, I'd like to ask a question. In Ch2 (sided with Roche) you are told about the conspiracy, get a coin from either the father of a young soldier or the drunk, then go to the brothel, give the coin, the girl unlocks the hatch, you go down, get a forced conversation with the guy wearing that fancy armor of courage, no matter what you say, you fight.

Then in the journal it says something like Geralt ran into the conspirators and killed them in self defense ('cause good ol' Geralt will never kill people for the lulz), because the conspirators were afraid he's a spy and attacked him and there was nothing he could do but kill them.

No, there's no way you can join the conspiracy against the king.

The best you can do is

Spoiler

inform Dethmold about the conspirators' whereabouts - he will then send you some reinforcements for the fight.

At least some variety.

The moment I finished that quest I simply knew that in due time it would be used as an example of 'fakeness' of C&C in TWitcher.

Then again, I think no one lamented that you couldn't join Delekhan in Betrayal at Krondor, or you had to fight Ravel in Planescape. There's simply a limit for C&C in story-driven RPGs, in the same way there is in a well prepared Pen&Paper campaign led by a competent DM.

 

[Riso]

VD is doing some world class trolling here.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Red shirt vs green shirt.

Oh, you mean like killing Connor, sacrificing someone to into the fade for him, or travel to the circle and save him via their help? That's not just red shirt vs. green shirt, no sir-ee. That's fucking nothing at all instead. A REAL choice, that one.

These are quest solutions, Grunk. I have nothing against the multiple ways to deal with that knight in the prologue. They are well done, but the consequences (so far) are non-existent.

EDIT: omw to play some oldschool D&D dungeon-crawl. Will post when we're finished tonight or tommorrow. Do note that some of my examples will pretty much spoil most of the story for you

I asked you to post from Chapter 1 and 2, if possible. Thanks.

 

[Exmit]

Good RPG does not need C&C at all.


Good RPG first have tons of numbers and tables for aspies.

2nd it has a thoughtfully made out basic combat system.

3rd a good setting


Those 3 and you can make GOTY Rpg ( see fallout)

 

[Vault Dweller]

The moment I finished that quest I simply knew that in due time it would be used as an example of 'fakeness' of C&C in TWitcher.

Because the design is shit.

They could have given you some persuasion or intimidation options, rewarding you for putting all "points" into intimidation, for example. As it is, you simply walk in, talk to the guy, he attacks, you kill them all "in self defense", grab the armor, the journal explains that you really had to, the end.

Then again, I think no one lamented that you couldn't join Delekhan in Betrayal at Krondor, or you had to fight Ravel in Planescape. There's simply a limit for C&C in story-driven RPGs, in the same way there is in a well prepared Pen&Paper campaign led by a competent DM.

Isn't that what I said?

The Witcher 2 is a very enjoyable game. I like it more than the first game, but the C&C aspect isn't strong and I suspect it's because the game is too story-driven, much like PST, which also wasn't known for non-linearity or choices & consequences.

 

[Andhaira]

Won't AoD be story driven VeeDee?

 

[J_C]

PST... which also wasn't known for non-linearity or choices & consequences.

You say this now but the Codex always held this up as a prime example of great C&C.

 

[Mrowak]

The moment I finished that quest I simply knew that in due time it would be used as an example of 'fakeness' of C&C in TWitcher.

Because the design is shit.

Watch out. You're using hyperbole here. This is the domain of Cryway, not a knowledgeable game-dev.

They could have given you some persuasion or intimidation options, rewarding you for putting all "points" into intimidation, for example. As it is, you simply walk in, talk to the guy, he attacks, you kill them all "in self defense", grab the armor, the journal explains that you really had to, the end.

While not completely stellar in this case it's quite believeable that the scene plays out the way it does. It is perfectly possible to believe someone is too stuipid, ignorant and vainglorious to consider our heroe a threat. I will agree, however, that in this particular case the lack of dialogue options was evidently jarring.

Then again, I think no one lamented that you couldn't join Delekhan in Betrayal at Krondor, or you had to fight Ravel in Planescape. There's simply a limit for C&C in story-driven RPGs, in the same way there is in a well prepared Pen&Paper campaign led by a competent DM.

Isn't that what I said?

Yes, it is. I indirectly confirmed your words. I feel no need to assert concession each time I happen to agree with someone with: 'Yes, you're completely right, my lord.' I simply made no attempt in that statement to attack your position. :shrugs:

The Witcher 2 is a very enjoyable game. I like it more than the first game, but the C&C aspect isn't strong and I suspect it's because the game is too story-driven, much like PST, which also wasn't known for non-linearity or choices & consequences.

The C&C aspect is the strongest you could expect from the game with good storyline, memorable characters driven by logical motivations, and quite decently realised setting with very strong context being provided. I haven't seen any wRPG that did all of these aspects right. I am sorry, but although I am first to recognise merits of Fallout and Arcanum even drunk with love for them I cannot say the, story, the intrigue, and the characterisation were their most well-realised parts. They were somewhere out there lagging in a long distance behind the truly complex C&C.

I will concede that TWitcher 2 is not the game you should look for the kind of C&C you get in say Arcanum. TW2 never even attempted to follow its path. CDP Red just didn't choose to follow your favourite RPG-design philosophy. But it doesn't mean the lack of the approach Troika games' implemented makes it any less RPG than Fallout, or BAK, or Planescape, or ROA.

.

.

.

It's action-oriented combat that does that

 

[Vault Dweller]

You say this now but the Codex always held this up as a prime example of great C&C.

Link?

Even in the old days it was seen as a glorified (but incredibly well written) adventure game with stats.

 

[Krokar]

Patch 1.2 is out. Downloading at 10 KB/s... FFS

 

[Phelot]

Well, after I finished Act 1, I had a thought about the combat and leveling and whether or not you need to invest skills.

I'd say the main problem with this game is that each act is too small and the enemies are all roughly the same level.

By too small, I mean the actual size is small of course, but also the fact that each act appears to have a single town with an obligatory craftsmen that is going to sell the next obligatory super weapon that you must get. No searching around for it, no traveling to another village and *finally* discovering a new recipe for an awesome sword or even just buying one from some hole in the wall smithy. It's all right there. Any diagrams I find or got from quests seemed to be minor upgrades, even the robust silver sword (IIRC the name)

Enemies all seem to be the same level and as a result, there was never any area that made me think "I better come back when I'm a higher level." I could go anywhere and face anything once I fully understood all the moves and commands. Certainly, increasing in level will help matters, but I found no area that I absolutely could not beat until I gained a new level. Maybe this is different in Act 2, but from what I started to play in it, it appears to be the same.

So basically, assuming you ARE investing skill points, you're going to succeed and the only thing to blame for a lost fight is your own skills as a player, not because you stumbled onto a fight your character's skills can't handle.


Does anyone have a "Choices" map for the game? I don't care about spoilers at this point, but I am curious about what exactly is the difference with choices. I sided with Roche in Act 1, is the new area I sailed to different from Iorveths? That is pretty cool if so.

 

[Mrowak]

Patch 1.2 is out. Downloading at 10 KB/s... FFS

You're using the game-setup, right?

It's also available on CDP RED's official page. I think it'll be faster that way.

 

[Krokar]

Yeah, I use launcher. Just wanted to play the game and it started to DL it. Oh well, it's something like 60% done anyway.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The moment I finished that quest I simply knew that in due time it would be used as an example of 'fakeness' of C&C in TWitcher.

Because the design is shit.

Watch out. You're using hyperbole here. This is the domain of Cryway, not a knowledgeable game-dev.

In case I wasn't clear, the design of this particular quest (not of the entire game) is utter fucking shit. You place a group of NPCs in a room, give them an item the PC needs and can't do without, have a pointless chat where the PC says give me the item and nobody will get hurt, the leader refuses and they all turn hostile.

Is there a worse design?

While not completely stellar in this case it's quite believeable that the scene plays out the way it does. It is perfectly possible to believe someone is too stuipid, ignorant and vainglorious to consider our heroe a threat. I will agree, however, that in this particular case the lack of dialogue options was evidently jarring.

RPGs should be designed with options in mind. Did the character in question absolutely HAD to be so stupid and ignorant? What about other people? For example, when you chat with the drunk, his friends can interrupt and fail the quest for you. Is there a reason why it can't be done in this case? If you can't convince the main target, convince his friends. Give a fucking option to have a different outcome, basically.

The C&C aspect is the strongest you could expect from the game with good storyline, memorable characters driven by logical motivations, and quite decently realised setting with very strong context being provided. I haven't seen any wRPG that did all of these aspects right. I am sorry, but although I am first to recognise merits of Fallout and Arcanum even drunk with love for them I cannot say the, story, the intrigue, and the characterisation were their most well-realised parts. They were somewhere out there lagging in a long distance behind the truly complex C&C.

I agree that the setting and characters are better realized that in Fallout and Arcanum. I disagree that the c&c aspect is the strongest you could expect.

One example is the already discussed armor of courage. They could have designed it better with min effort, but didn't. The obvious option of siding with the commandant in Flotsam isn't there. The obvious option of acting against the commandant when he gets in your way the first time isn't there. Etc. Basically, you can't do anything until the game tells you that you can and then you only get limited options, if any. You side with Roche and suddenly it's ok to attack the commandant and the swine must die. You can't intimidate him, can't make a deal with him, making him Roche's man, none.

Strongest you could expect? I don't think so.

 

[dr. one]

I sided with Roche in Act 1, is the new area I sailed to different from Iorveths? That is pretty cool if so.

Spoiler

You arrive in the same general area.
However, the area is divided in the middle and with whom you sail determines on what side you end up.
Each side has its own quest hub, story and characters though you do get to interact with the other side later in the chapter. You´re looking at about 7-10 hours of significantly different content and chapter 3 plays out rather differently based on this choice as well.
I think that Roche variant has more unique atmosphere, imo the most memorable character in the game is featured a lot more prominently (Roche) and an optional dick scene, but overall feels less fleshed out and slightly more railroaded than the other path which, however, also feels a bit more generic.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Someone explain:

Spoiler

If you go the Roche route you can't save Saskia? But after the Dragon fight when you return to the city you can loot Eilhart's stilett somewhere. Why? Can you still use it somehow?