OMG! There is some intelligence at the Escapist!

[Imbecile]

@ Volourn No - it's not the way it should be. At the moment a wizard in dnd can fulfill any role in the party at any given time. This is broken. He can summons for tanking, deal ranged damage, use spells for scouting etc. What's the point of having any other party members if the batman wizard can do any role better ?
.

I dunno, cant be that broken or everyone would pick a mage - which they dont. 4e is generally very balanced, which some see as a problem.

 

[Grifthin]

From a power perspective a mage is the only thing to pick. From a role playing or mechanics point of view the other classes are viable. I'm talking about anything in dnd 3.5, 3.0 and 2 etc. I don't know 4 well enough to comment.

 

[Grunker]

Grifthin - I agree completely with you, but that's why they made a little compendium called Book of Nine Swords. With that, fighter-types became in again

 

[Clockwork Knight]

This is what Grunkers actually believe

 

[Grifthin]

and tomb of battle, complete warrior....hmmm delicious payback.

 

[Volourn]

"@ Volourn No - it's not the way it should be. At the moment a wizard in dnd can fulfill any role in the party at any given time. This is broken. He can summons for tanking, deal ranged damage, use spells for scouting etc. What's the point of having any other party members if the batman wizard can do any role better ? "

Yes, it should be that way. Magic vs mUndane? Who should win? The mage. A farmer can pick up a sword and swing it but a farmer cna't just start casting spells. Sorry, a mage should be more powerful. period.

 

[Melcar]

Bullshit

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Volourn, are you trying to say Dragon Age is better than BG2? I feel your posts aren't clear enough.

 

[Volourn]

Mages being more pwoerful than warriors is not a DA vs BG2 hting. It's just fact no matter the game, or setting. It's the way it should be.

 

[Gay-Lussac]

A farmer can pick up a sword and swing it but a farmer cna't just start casting spells. Sorry, a mage should be more powerful. period.

This is like... the best argument ever

 

[BearBomber]

"@ Volourn No - it's not the way it should be. At the moment a wizard in dnd can fulfill any role in the party at any given time. This is broken. He can summons for tanking, deal ranged damage, use spells for scouting etc. What's the point of having any other party members if the batman wizard can do any role better ? "

Yes, it should be that way. Magic vs mUndane? Who should win? The mage. A farmer can pick up a sword and swing it but a farmer cna't just start casting spells. Sorry, a mage should be more powerful. period.

This is total bullshit. From the gameplay point of view making mage much more powerful is complete failure. The RPG party should consist of people on the same power level or usefulness to the party. That provides all players with fun. When mage is more powerful nobody is having fun, because warriors are feeling useless, and mage is feeling unchallenged, or too powerful. If the 10th level mage can outdone 10th level warrior in any way than he shouldn't be 10th level character. That also makes sense from the logical point of view. If magic is unnatural, mysterious force like in most fantasy novels then it should take years to master it. The all-powerful mage should not be in the party that is much weaker than him, because he could be in much more powerful party. If the mage have a power that match an army of warriors, then his companion shouldn't be a single weak warrior, but a general and his army

 

[Raghar]

Your fighter comes up to wizard to kill him, wizard casts charm - asks fighter to please go and buy him some cookies 2 cities away. Fighter says OK! anything for his best friend. Wizard carries on with his work.

That's silly. First charm wears off fairly quickly. Second it only tends to force the person to act as friend. So he can end being beat into pulp and tied up instead of killed. While he has work here to harm the wizard, he might allow the wizard to move away. Going to other city for stuff alone would be absurd. Do you know how long is that trip, he might force the wizard to accompany him. Of course P3 charm is something else, the fighter would jump at his companions, for a while.

Look at this example:

Demon said: I can cast weakness and you would be laying at my feet.
He cast weaknes.
The third character lay at his feet because she wasn't able to support her body.
The second character was protected against low level spell like weakness by her armor.
The first character stood firm weekened and said "So when you will cast your spell show yourself."
"I just did."
"It did nothing to me, you piss me off." Well when a character can lift 10 tones a decrease to 1 tone doesn't really matter as he can beat the crap out of you anyway.

Or another example.

A princess attacked main character with a sword, the main character deflected the blow which flew out of princess hands and pierced her heart.
The main character: "I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt you. (Actually I sort of want but not kill you.) "
Princess: "It's just a flesh wound." Then she ran away with sword still piercing her body. Yes it was just a flesh wound she survived and healed it easily.

A bonus points for person who would guess from where are these citations.

Basically you are talking about a mage who risked his live, sanity, and spend a lot of time to learn fairly complex things. vs a person who was avoiding to learning magic and is somehow similar to an army general.

When you would start to talk about people that modified theirs bodies to be able to regenerate wounds as trolls, and have strengthened bodies above what common person can get by a training, you might talk about something comparable.

Honestly why these warriors you talk about didn't learn at least few levels in Mage, they would probably have slightly less skills with sword, but they would learn few spells, which might save theirs butts.

To cite strongest disciple Kenichi. "Yes I'd be able to do the same extremely hard and painful training as him (for negligible increase of fighting skills), but I'm too lazy."

Fighters are often too material. Wizards are sufficiently crazy to try.

Or perhaps we can use common logic. Should a fighter be able to defeat a monster who learned all skill fighter has and more, has more strength and durability, better armor, and know magic spells? That would be absurd isn't it. A mage on other hand might have a slight chance, so the monster will not be willing to risk his hide.

You played too many games that pretended to be beat them up, you might like to play some RPGs.

 

[ghostdog]

Volourn I agrre with you . DA is an Ok game but yeah BG2 >>>>>>> DA

Nuff -period- said.

It's the way it should be.+++

 

[Grifthin]

@ Rhagar - substitute suggestion for charm then since your feeling pedantic. I'm talking dnd 3, 3.5 setting in this case. Also if the subject you cast charm on is your friend THEN HE WON"T FUCKING TIE YOU UP AND BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF YOU, YOU DUMB FUCK - READ THE SPELL DESCRIPTION.

Also read the thread, I mentioned dozens of ways of evading/nullifying fighters besides something as lame as weakness.Oh and a army general vs mage is a completely different matter by the way. If you have a army at your disposal vs said mage then you likely have cleric/spell casters of your own in addition to your men at arms.

And I quote:

" Or perhaps we can use common logic. Should a fighter be able to defeat a monster who learned all skill fighter has and more, has more strength and durability, better armor, and know magic spells? That would be absurd isn't it. A mage on other hand might have a slight chance, so the monster will not be willing to risk his hide. "

I doubt most monsters learn the skills fighters have. I'd like to see a ooze use a sword and shield, I'd like to see a creature with tentacles wield a bow. Granted intelligent humunoid enemies can learn tactics/strategy as well as the skills of war. but then again most monsters arn't terribly smart or don't even have a brain in the case of some creatures.

Also there's nothing to stop fighters modifying their bodies. My one character had 2 more arms grafted to him so the he could duel wield 2 composite bows. As for your mages vs warriors theory - in dnd wizards spend MANY years in a tower studying their spells. The only ones who don't have to do that are sorcerors, but they have a much smaller selection of spells to cast hence they arn't as versatile as wizards.

 

[Secretninja]

Warriors need buffs. What are they good for? Paladins and DKs are both better tanks, and their dps is shit. Fury wars need to be brought back in style.

Mages are fucking op on some fights, like twins. 14k dps is a tad obnoxious.

 

[Lesifoere]

Bears are pretty okay too, you know. When I canceled my subscription, pretty much all tanks were bears or paladins, since DKs are squishy and made of paper: I swear, my warlock's a better tank given Mimiron (or one of the worms, even).

 

[Secretninja]

Hunter>all for mimiron, and the stationary worm if one of your tanks is a retard. Good locks are few and far between, mages are fucking EVERYWHERE.

I dislike bears because those faggots stole my rogues armor. Armor pen is NOT A TANKING STAT.

 

[Emotional Vampire]

...what the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Gragt]

WoW. Even I have some trouble to follow because I cancelled my sub during TBC and it seems that they are discussing some stuff that came with WotLC, like that warlock thingy.

 

[Coyote]

From a power perspective a mage is the only thing to pick. From a role playing or mechanics point of view the other classes are viable. I'm talking about anything in dnd 3.5, 3.0 and 2 etc. I don't know 4 well enough to comment.

I don't know about that, clerics and druids are pretty damn powerful in 3.5 as well. Just not as versatile.

I actually agree with Volourn somewhat in that magic users (at least, high-end magic users) should be more powerful than fighters. The problem in D&D is that they have both greater raw power and more versatility, and they end up being able to cover other classes' roles better than they can themselves. Mages should be powerful, but they shouldn't be able to out-melee a fighter or out-thief/scout a rogue; in my ideal system, a mage would be able to beat a fighter in any straight-out battle, but the fighter would still play a vital role in the party due to his own unique strengths and be able to beat a mage in the right circumstances (which he basically can't in 3.5, especially if Celerity is allowed). Balance between classes isn't necessary if the game is designed such that everyone still has their own moments to shine.

 

[Gragt]

I don't like mages. They have the nerve to ask druids for innervate.

Looks like some things are constant everywhere you go.

I had my revenge a few times back in Molten Core: blessing of protection on the tank and all mages dead. Good fun. I was asked to never do that again but it was worth it.

 

[Damned Registrations]

A lot of the trouble with mages in DnD is simply spells being poorly balanced. Time Stop should be an epic spell, not some level 9 thing you can cast every day. Fly and invisibility should be level 4 or 5 spells. Greater invisibility should be 5 or 6, not 4. Teleport should have a multiple round casting time and a major cost and be the level of greater teleport. Rope Trick should be vulnerable to anyone that makes a spot check and can throw a rock into the hole you crawled into. These aren't spells that do slightly more or less damage than is required, they fundamentally change the rules of the game.

Even a 5th level BARD can do cheesy things like invis and silence himself, at which point he's pretty much completely undetectable by anything remotely level appropriate, even while running at top speed. How many encounters can THAT break?

Ogres raiding from a base in an underground cave? A 5th level cleric or druid can PERMANENTLY seal it shut without spending a dime on spell components or stepping foot inside, not to mention build himself a freaking castle after a week or so, with a single spell. How do you value something like that? How much would it cost to build a castle normally? How long would it take?

And this is just crap from the srd. Any country with a level 10 wizard or two in their employ would be able to create a fortress the size of a city after a year or so. Walls made of solid iron. A dozen bridges and moats and chasms all with magically reinforced gates.

Higher level wizards are just completely absurd to even comprehend. Anyone who achieves Lich status should have multiple fortresses on other planes, and their phylactery buried inside a freaking mountain, surrounded by permanent Walls of Force in a cavity filled with deadly poison gas and enchantments to prevent teleporting in, and a dozen of each symbol trap and a few hundred incorporeal undead trapped inside too just for fun. The concept of running into a half dozen liches hanging around in a tomb doing nothing and killing them all for their phat loots is stupid beyond belief.

Even a retarded and reckless high level spellcaster can do things like this: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0448.html

 

[Secretninja]

Innervate should never be used on anything but paladins.
Also, I evade tanked anubarak from 7% on 25 reg once. Truestory.

 

[Volourn]

"but the fighter would still play a vital role in the party due to his own unique strengths and be able to beat a mage in the right circumstances"

They are, they do, and they can.


"Higher level wizards are just completely absurd to even comprehend."

This might be a silly cop out but it fits... it's magic.. duh.

 

[Grifthin]

Really ? How do they do that Volourn ?

Druids can wildshape into creatures that hit harder than the fighter/paladin while retaining their spell casting (wild shape spell casting feat).

Clerics hit harder due to one reasonable low level spell - Devine power, and can still wear full plate.

Wizards/sorcerors will just summon something bigger and nastier than a fighter to tank for them.

See ? The fighter is outclassed by full casters. Hybrid casters like the paladin/ranger and skill monkies like the rogue/Bard are broken to a lesser degree but still don't come close to a spell casters power.