OMG! There is some intelligence at the Escapist!

[Emotional Vampire]

BG > IWD2 > BG2 > IWD > DA

 

[kris]

The spell system sucks though. The most effective thing my mage can do is stop casting and toggle on Arcane Warrior and start to chop things. A clear sign they did something terribly wrong with that..

Uh? To say that you either have to be some kind of special person or have not played the game. Or is this some kind of poorly conveyed sarcasm that I didn't get?

For gods sake, outline how he is incorrect on these points. This kind of thing adds nothing to an argument.

You mean like he did? Puhleeze!

The consensus from anyone having played the game is that magic is overpowered and that having three mages and one warrior is the most powerful group. Now he claimed that the best use for a mage was equipping them with a sword... But if you really really want to know.

Pretty much all the winning tactics in the game revolve around using spells. The freeze spells are best since they lock down one or whole groups of enemies which then can easily be dispatched. Especially since they can shatter. They also take considerable damage with those spells and all the difficult enemies become easy. Overall all the area spells are game winners, deals heavy damage to multiple enemies at the same time as they might have other effects. Forcefield is another story, if a mage only had that spell that mage would still be very useful, especially in boss fights.

 

[Grifthin]

@ Lesifoere - Look the combat system is unbalanced, this does not prevent me from deriving enjoyment from the game. Is that truely so strange ?
That aside 99% of the games that codex goers cherish are broken in their combat systems OR flat out have bad combat.

 

[kris]

Uh? To say that you either have to be some kind of special person or have not played the game. Or is this some kind of poorly conveyed sarcasm that I didn't get?

I wasn't being sarcastic and I'm playing the game (currently I'm almost finished with the Deep Roads). I guess that means I'm a special person then.

I'll explain it in more detail:
It doesn't appeal to me that as a mage you have only a few spells and thus are forced to spam the same spells over and over. It makes things repetitive. Sure I could have 12 more spells hadn't I leveled up my class and my prestige classes (Mage,Arcane Warrior,Blood Mage), but that raises the question what's the point of these prestige classes in the first place. Even if I did I'd still not know the majority of spells. I don't think a wizard should be like this. The number of spells known and thus the number of diverse and different tactical approaches pales in comparison to other RPGs, especially D&D ones, and DA will have to live with the comparison towards DnD games. It's always the same, I blizzard the area infront of me, cast force cage on a strong critter, cast crushing prison on a weak one, cast glyph of paralyzation on a weak one, cast cone of cold on some approaching foes, then I activate Arcane Warrior and kill them with the sword because 1) it is quickest 2) you're protected best and suffer the least damage that way.
Next encounter, same story. I couldn't even do different since you can't change your spell selection. At the very least you shouldn't be required to use the points you need to pick spells to advance your class/prestige classes. That would be a significant improvement imo. Even better would be if you unlock a spell school once (the higher tier spells would unlock automatically after acquiring the prereq levels or stats) and you only buy spell slots at level up. That way I could chose for myself which spells to use in combat and you could check out way more spells. I just don't like the fact that I won't be able to cast the majority of spells, that's lame for a Mage.

This did kind of explain it, but you still control the whole battle with magic. You said the spell system sucks, which is not true. You might not like it, but even with this description you came to the conclusion of how useful some spells are. I never seen a need for a mage to do anything but keep on throwing in spells.

so basically spells don't suck, you just dont like the system, which is another thing altogether. Fair enough though.

I'm not going to gimp myself just because the game is badly balanced. And technically, most classes/specs (if not in fact all) in DA can stun. Shale can quake. The sword-and-board warriors can shield pummel or bash, both on separate cooldowns. Rogues can dirty-fight. Archers can scatter shot. It just so happens that one mage alone can have access to three forms of stuns, if specced properly--and spec choice is limited given how few spells there are, and how useless a great many of them turn out in practice. (I used fireball far more than I used the big AOE like inferno/blizzard/tempest.)

apart from mages most stuns are not really very useful. The warriors and whatnot can use them, but generally only on weak enemies were it is not really useful. Their lack of multistun compared to a mage makes it worse. So I'd agree that the game is not balanced, in fact I think everyone agress that mages is really the gamewinners.

 

[Lesifoere]

@ Lesifoere - Look the combat system is unbalanced, this does not prevent me from deriving enjoyment from the game. Is that truely so strange ?
That aside 99% of the games that codex goers cherish are broken in their combat systems OR flat out have bad combat.

But they have other redeeming factors. C&C, good writing, interesting quests, good art direction. Whatever. DA doesn't.

I'm not saying you can't enjoy it. I'm pointing out that you trying to excuse unbalanced shit with "well, don't use it" is dumb.

 

[Volourn]

da > bg2

 

[Grifthin]

@ Lesifoere - all those redeeming factors you mention are subjective. I for one enjoyed the art direction of DA, It was nice to have some plain weapons/armor for a change instead of the multi color cluster fucks many games end up with. I enjoyed the characters (morrigan especially - she has a awesome voice actress), Some of the quests where awesome and the story was enjoyable. You might hate the story or the art or whatever. That doesn't make the any better or worse. It just means that it did not suit your tastes.

As for the imbalances - it's a rpg, there will be imbalances. Almost every single popular RPG that came out the past 15 years had something in it that could imbalance it. This ranged from class combo's, Equipment, Skills etc. So saying that I prefer to play a party a certain way is not a excuse.

In dragon age alot of the unbalances come directly from some spells and 2 specializations. Arcane warrior and Blood mage. I don't use these. besides - it's single player so abilities don't really have to be uber balanced. And magic is hyped up to be massively powerfull in the lore, so it's nice that the game reflects that.

 

[Lesifoere]

@ Lesifoere - all those redeeming factors you mention are subjective. I for one enjoyed the art direction of DA, It was nice to have some plain weapons/armor for a change instead of the multi color cluster fucks many games end up with.

Blood dragon armor? Enormous shoulderpads?

 

[Grifthin]

I tend to leave out pre-order items when thinking of a game's items. Blood dragon helm was a bit googly - but the armor itself was fine for me.
As for the enormous shoulderpads - I play warhammer 40000 tabletop - it's pretty normal for me by now. Your shoulders can never have enough protection. I like sets like the juggernaut armor, Superior Dragonbone was nice looking, the "effort" set was nice, and the legion of the dead armor just screamed bad arse. reminded me of the Atlas class assault mech in MW actually.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Now he claimed that the best use for a mage was equipping them with a sword

Precisely. But since I don't seem to have played the game, explain to me: How is striking for ~100 dmg each hit, while having the highest Armor, Defense, Attack of the whole party and permanent etherealness to boot NOT effective? You should try it, and yes the Arcane Warrior abilities are spells too after all, I never complained about spells being too weak. Some are pretty overpowered. I merely complained about being forced to use the same spells/tactics exclusively which gets old fast, especially considering the massive amount of combat encounters.

Forcefield is another story, if a mage only had that spell that mage would still be very useful, especially in boss fights.

And I'm sure it would be a tremendous experience, casting the same spell exclusively during a 100h game. Although not much worse than it already is, casting the same 8 spells again and again, glad you like it.

This did kind of explain it, but you still control the whole battle with magic.

never implied otherwise

You said the spell system sucks, which is not true.

more precise: the fact you have to stick to the same spells forever and can never check out all the other spells - unless you replay 5x with a mage - sucks. Better?

da > bg2

NWN combat > DA combat

 

[Grifthin]

Well to be fair a mage can end up with 20-30 spells easily enough. Especially if one buys tombs. Now in NWN (example) you had access to hundreds of spells but rarely used more than a dozen or so because many where just plain bad or had duplicate effects.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well to be fair a mage can end up with 20-30 spells easily enough. Especially if one buys tombs. Now in NWN (example) you had access to hundreds of spells but rarely used more than a dozen or so because many where just plain bad or had duplicate effects.

Yes but you need 12 points alone for leveling your class/prestige class abilities. As I said before, it would be much better if you hadn't to use the points you need to pick spells for that. 12 points for classes, that leaves your Mage with 8 or so spells at frigging level 20.
If that were spell slots instead, I could just pick the 8 spells I want to use in combat, if I don't like them I just switch them for something else... I would like that way better. An Archmage who knows 10 spells - lame.

 

[Grifthin]

i didn't even use a perstige class for most of my mages - except wynne - who got spirit healer that gives you 4 more spells. Mind - you still need to try shape shifting. It looks fun.

 

[Malakal]

i didn't even use a perstige class for most of my mages - except wynne - who got spirit healer that gives you 4 more spells. Mind - you still need to try shape shifting. It looks fun.

Class abilities other than arcane warrior and blood mage suck. Don't bother with shapeshifting, I regret spending Morrigans points on this. Shapeshift takes too much time, can be interrupted and assumed form is damn weak. Why bother being subpar warrior when you can be a mage?

 

[Lesifoere]

I picked two specializations for my mage PC but never bothered using any of the abilities. Are the blood mage ones worth it then?

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

if you're out of mana and stand in wynne's healing aura you could cast from blood instead of mana - I guess that could be useful
then there's the lvl3 ability, damages enemies a bit and the weak ones will be - surprise - stunned. didn't use domination yet.

 

[kris]

Now he claimed that the best use for a mage was equipping them with a sword

Precisely. But since I don't seem to have played the game, explain to me: How is striking for ~100 dmg each hit, while having the highest Armor, Defense, Attack of the whole party and permanent etherealness to boot NOT effective? You should try it, and yes the Arcane Warrior abilities are spells too after all, I never complained about spells being too weak. Some are pretty overpowered. I merely complained about being forced to use the same spells/tactics exclusively which gets old fast, especially considering the massive amount of combat encounters.

You are skipping the point again. Also I don't really know any game ever where you use more than just a few spells all the time. I didn't see you complain about using the same tactics before, I saw you say that spells wasn't that useful, when in truth they are the bread and butter of combat. If anything they are too useful and you have to overrely on them.

That a warrior gives out 100 damage and can take a lot of punishment just doesn't measure up against givning 20 damage to several enemies and freezing/knocking them out. Also, I'd rather say your mage can take a bit to much punishment.

A good fighter in DnD is much more powerful compared to a mage than he would be in DA were the tilt isn't the same.

 

[Grifthin]

Umm - no, just no. A good fighter in dnd is NEVER as good as a mage. The fighter has no utility, virtually no social skills and can only deal hitpoint damage. Spell casters get Save or die spells, Save or suck etc.

A spell caster in dnd renders a fighter completely useless with 1 spell. Fly. Good luck hitting him when he's floating 30+ feet above you. Pull out a bow - he just uses windwall or protection from arrows. You think a Fighter is the best at fighting ? let the mage polymorph into a dragon or demon and then go to town on the enemy. Dnd is a broken broken system where it comes to class balance. The fighter must conform to the laws of reality in dnd, the wizard breaks all the rules of reality 40 times before breakfast.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

You are skipping the point again. Also I don't really know any game ever where you use more than just a few spells all the time.

virtually every DnD game. You can choose to only use a few spells, but that's your decision then. It's not as if you know only a handful.

I didn't see you complain about using the same tactics before, I saw you say that spells wasn't that useful, when in truth they are the bread and butter of combat.

when I complained about the spell system I didn't mean that the spells themselves are weak or useless or ineffective. I already specified what I meant.

That a warrior gives out 100 damage and can take a lot of punishment just doesn't measure up against givning 20 damage to several enemies and freezing/knocking them out. Also, I'd rather say your mage can take a bit to much punishment.

Cast your best spells and as soon as you're out of mana turn on Arcane Warrior, freakingly effective.

A good fighter in DnD is much more powerful compared to a mage than he would be in DA were the tilt isn't the same.

what do you mean? That the powergap between fighters and mages is even greater in DA than in DnD? Or that a DnD fighter is more powerful than a DnD mage? Because the latter is not true.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

i didn't even use a perstige class for most of my mages - except wynne - who got spirit healer that gives you 4 more spells. Mind - you still need to try shape shifting. It looks fun.

Class abilities other than arcane warrior and blood mage suck. Don't bother with shapeshifting, I regret spending Morrigans points on this. Shapeshift takes too much time, can be interrupted and assumed form is damn weak. Why bother being subpar warrior when you can be a mage?

I suggest this mod.

http://dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35

Shifting is quicker, and harder to interrupt, and each of the five packs you can download is a new mastery path.


DragonShifting
Dragonling
Drake
Young Winged Dragon
Dragon Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

DemonShifting
Rage Demon
Desire Demon(Succubus)
Nature Demon (Lady of the Forest)
Demon Mastery(Permanent stat bonuses)

BeastShifting
Wolf
Blight Wolf
Werewolf
Beast Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

Undead Shifting
Shade
AshWraith
Revenant
Undead Mastery(permanent Stat Bonuses)

Tank Shifting
Stone Golem
Steel Golem
Ogre
Tank Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

It'll take some points to master any of these, but he's worked it out so the forms are worthwhile without being an instant "I win!" button.

 

[Grunker]

Same idea, I usually go for the lowest hp guy, or the one that deals damage considerably higher than the rest. Second question: same, or healers first

I was asking Aries, CK but since you answered - care to tell me how you knew which enemy had lowest HP in IE-games? The fact is that BG combat wasn't "target spellcaster first, rinse, repeat, ad nauseum", even though aries202 wishes to claim otherwise.

Well, like Volourn said, it's a general strategy for any game with spellcasters.

And I wasn't being literal about HP - I meant "guy likely to die faster". Sometimes, having lower hp does't mean you're going down faster.

Spellcasters in BG2 had plenty of spellprotection, protection from weapons, Stoneskin and Mirror Image. Explain how that's easy to kill?

Battles in BG2 were never copies of the same battle over and over again. I actually attribute it partly to the fact it was a licensed system. Anyone who thinks developers can make a better system in 1 or 2 years than a system created only for the system's sake is a loon.

 

[Malakal]

i didn't even use a perstige class for most of my mages - except wynne - who got spirit healer that gives you 4 more spells. Mind - you still need to try shape shifting. It looks fun.

Class abilities other than arcane warrior and blood mage suck. Don't bother with shapeshifting, I regret spending Morrigans points on this. Shapeshift takes too much time, can be interrupted and assumed form is damn weak. Why bother being subpar warrior when you can be a mage?

I suggest this mod.

http://dragonagenexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=35

Shifting is quicker, and harder to interrupt, and each of the five packs you can download is a new mastery path.


DragonShifting
Dragonling
Drake
Young Winged Dragon
Dragon Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

DemonShifting
Rage Demon
Desire Demon(Succubus)
Nature Demon (Lady of the Forest)
Demon Mastery(Permanent stat bonuses)

BeastShifting
Wolf
Blight Wolf
Werewolf
Beast Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

Undead Shifting
Shade
AshWraith
Revenant
Undead Mastery(permanent Stat Bonuses)

Tank Shifting
Stone Golem
Steel Golem
Ogre
Tank Mastery(permanent stat bonuses)

It'll take some points to master any of these, but he's worked it out so the forms are worthwhile without being an instant "I win!" button.

While nice I suppose those mods don't adress the main issue here. Shapeshifting in the mage circle quest was kickass providing 4 different forms and plenty of abilities. Each form was unique and useful. Shapeshifter as a class offers only limited versatility and skils to use.

I mean just look at those forms: weak/stronger/stongest in each case. Thats shit, I wanted to shift into (for example) ice elemental to freeze enemies then to earth elemental to shatter them. This is shapeshifting I would like. Not making my mage into a warrior. Even a strong one.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

While nice I suppose those mods don't adress the main issue here. Shapeshifting in the mage circle quest was kickass providing 4 different forms and plenty of abilities. Each form was unique and useful. Shapeshifter as a class offers only limited versatility and skils to use.

you're right, the shapeshifting - and this whole quest in general - was pretty awesome.
It was pretty easy because switching shapes would heal you, but it was fun nonetheless. A pity one couldn't keep this ability.

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

While nice I suppose those mods don't adress the main issue here. Shapeshifting in the mage circle quest was kickass providing 4 different forms and plenty of abilities. Each form was unique and useful. Shapeshifter as a class offers only limited versatility and skils to use.

you're right, the shapeshifting - and this whole quest in general - was pretty awesome.
It was pretty easy because switching shapes would heal you, but it was fun nonetheless. A pity one couldn't keep this ability.

Someone will find a way to duplicate it eventually. Possibly even improve it. People are coming out of the woodwork to look at the modding tools right now.




Though we'll still have to deal with several nude mods that have already popped up.

 

[GarfunkeL]

Well to be fair a mage can end up with 20-30 spells easily enough. Especially if one buys tombs. Now in NWN (example) you had access to hundreds of spells but rarely used more than a dozen or so because many where just plain bad or had duplicate effects.

Depends on the encounter. Lazy NWN devs just made vanilla encounters most of the time, except the few mobs which were immune to all sorts of magic. It's not the fault of the system. That sort of excuse doesn't fly with DA.

That aside 99% of the games that codex goers cherish are broken in their combat systems OR flat out have bad combat.

Hyperbole much? JA2, ToEE, KotC - nothing broken or bad about those. Fallout1/2 had nice combat and incidentally, wasn't broken. IE-games? Please. Goldbox? No, no no.

Only PS:T, Arcanum and Bloodlines are games which are generally accepted to fall into one or both of your categories. So saying "99% of the games that codex cherish" is pure bullshit.

A spell caster in dnd renders a fighter completely useless with 1 spell. Fly. Good luck hitting him when he's floating 30+ feet above you. Pull out a bow - he just uses windwall or protection from arrows. You think a Fighter is the best at fighting ? let the mage polymorph into a dragon or demon and then go to town on the enemy. Dnd is a broken broken system where it comes to class balance.

Shows what you know. Yes, let's put a noob, stupid fighter against an experience, clever mage. Who wins?

Maybe the fighter should have charged to engage mage in melee before he has time cast anything - thanks to improve initiative, boots of speed or whatever. Then use AoO to slice the pointy hat in half when they try to cast anything. Pull out a Composite Long Bow +5 with Arrows of Dispelling, then use Arrows of Slaying. Wear a helmet of Silence, 15' feet. Pay a cleric to bless a pouch full of pebbles, so they all are +1, then just fling them at the Stoneskin-wearing mage. Wear a ring of Magic Immunity.

Both in 2nd ed and 3.5 ed fighters have a plethora of ways to defeat mages. Just because you don't have the knowledge/imagination to work them out doesn't mean that DnD is a broken system. AGAIN, much blame falls on devs who, already constrained by a computer system, still manage to be lazy and not even use all the tools on their disposal.