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On the shoulders of giants: a new multiple choices LP!

Clotstein

Augur
Joined
Jul 17, 2012
Messages
128
Location
At the back of your skull.
B

It seems we either let this mad fool rule us or we loose our defining trait as a tribe (fire powah and stuff). I'd rather the tribe develop into something different.

EDIT:

Well, I'm not inclined to hand over the gem just yet. Perhaps we could release the Wielder from his dung duties for his efforts so far,

I'd be willing to give him at least that much. But still keep an eye on him.
 

ScubaV

Prophet
Joined
Feb 20, 2011
Messages
1,022
Well, I'm not inclined to hand over the gem just yet. Perhaps we could release the Wielder from his dung duties for his efforts so far, but letting him chain fire elementals to himself (and let's face it, they will obey him NOT the tribe as a whole) is going too far. I could see pursuing this plan once other apprentices have been trained up enough that this power wouldn't rest in the hands of one man who has already subverted us.

That said B is a little too extreme in the other direction. I don't see a need to try to arrest the Wielder, especially when all he has to do is drop his breathing shield and everyone chokes to death. Still B is better than A. Hopefully the Wielder goes along with it and the council can be a voice of reason when they return.
 

Bloodshifter

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
542
Location
Somewhere with dead bears
He can convert the elementals he does have to I say we give him the orb but tell him to only quell the spirits if we got huge fire things walking around it be bad for morale

remember we can edit our choices slightly if we feel like it quell and dispersing the spirits should get the job done and avoid giving too much power to the Wielder

also I say send another water shaman see if we can fix the river on our way back clean water is essential for our tribe.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
B

This is the first time I considered not voting against wielder, but just because fire spirits reminded me of Conflux in Heroes 4. It would be awesome to have an elemental army. Voting B, but maybe we shouldn't restrain him.
 

Internet

Scholar
Joined
Mar 8, 2012
Messages
136
I'm torn on this one. The Wielder is a potentially dangerous fanatic and giving him power could shape the tribe in a grimdark way. On the other hand we cannot continue punish him forever and should have just killed him when we had the chance if we really wanted to get rid of him, but that chance is gone. We are still neighbors with mysterious forest beasts lead by a wizard, so I guess improving our arsenal with fire thingies is tempting.

Voting A for now, but I'm listening to arguments.
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
We cannot punish him forever, I agree. But we CAN take this opportunity to kill him. After all he's clearly going against the council's wishes and trying to play us for fools. Will that cause some turmoil? Yes. Will we be better off with a fanatical priest guiding the tribe? Noooooooooooooo

We have a mountain of problems. We are in shitty location, we do not have many weapons, we have forest tribes to the east (and I still think they are dangerous. Or worse, they are not because they are at war with someone else and they are losing.) And let's not forget about the dragon.

Going militaristic, fanatical theocracy will not serve us well in the long view. Sure we may rack up some conquests, UNTIL everyone gets pissed at us. No, we cannot survive if every tribe in the world wants to kill us. And let's not go into the mysterious figures, lest someone accuses me of being metagamey. You all are too, to some extent. But whatever.

Plus, yes we increase fire magic, but we COMPLETELY lose the chance to learn other magics. The fire wielder will KILL anyone not following the fire spirit. Not to mention, in order to keep power firmly under control he will not allow us to develop many technologies.

Fact: every oppressive theocracy in history was against technological development. They do so to keep power in their own hands. So, forget about having a technological advantage over anyone if he becomes our leader.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,058
Location
NZ
Theocracy =/= Technological backwardness

That's just some dumb trope that people think of because of popular misinterpretation of the Galileo trial, which was more about Galileo being politically foolish and unnecessarily pissing off the Pope than theocracy hindering science (the Jesuits actually supported Galileo before he attacked Urban VIII and it was the works of a Pagan that Galileo attacked).

It's also just something that a game like Civ uses to balance out theocracy as a 'good for warmaking, bad for teching' system.
 

Collage

Educated
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
59
B. The quicker this guy goes the quicker we can move forward as a society.
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
What is this about everyone getting upset with us? The only major power we've ever heard of, the forest barbarians, have explicitly stated that they're leaving us to do whatever with the lake people so long as we don't do anything to them. For that matter, when the barbarians were going around and conquering folks like us, we never ever did anything to oppose them; we just freaked out about them for centuries and only ever fought them because we pretty much had to. This is a battle, I remind you, that was won largely due to the efforts of the Wielder.

Anyway, I suppose that the biggest reason I'm supporting the Wielder is that he's willing to teach us fire magic and I'm interested in moving forward with a society of magic users. Other people are saying that the Wielder blocks us off from other magic, but I haven't seen any evidence that this other magic exists yet. If we kill off the Wielder and just hope for other magic to come to us, well... we don't even worship any other stuff than fire aside from a few water worshippers, so with that combined with rejecting the fire Wielder, I don't see us getting any magic asides from maybe our descendents being conquered by another Wielder and any converted survivors picking up a little of that magic.

In which case, we may as well start up our efforts with the Wielder, anyway, seeing how that lets us do the conquering ourselves. I want to explore this magic tech tree.
 

Bloodshifter

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
542
Location
Somewhere with dead bears
Look Vernydar your getting people worked up over something that won't happen for years even if the Wielder takes over which he won't at least for now the chances of him doing something stupid will only happen if we choose for him to do something stupid remember its a CYOA we have control over the tribe our *figureheads* don't they merely lay the ideas at our feet and we pick them apart then give an answer so stop being childish, pessimistic, and meta-gamey.
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
so stop being childish, pessimistic, and meta-gamey.

I am certainly somewhat pessimistic in general. Though in this case, I really think there's no question about what I wrote before.

I am NOT being metagamey here. Everyone is basing his choices on things the tribesmen cannot know. Do not deny it because I will just laugh. Someone who wanted to move to the plains back then wanted nomadic people. Someone who voted for ranged weapons wanted bows and slings. The tribesmen do not know about that, we do and choose because of that.

And childish? What?
 

Bloodshifter

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
542
Location
Somewhere with dead bears
But how do you know what will happen thousands of years into the future of the tribe or go around saying that the Wielder will over take the council and install himself your basing your assumptions on nothing that is remotely near our tribes "knowledge" the choices we have at least has a tiny bit of Non-Meta possibilities how can you deny that we didn't go towards the plains because we wanted to gain the protection of the Mountain and ditto for ranged weapons we felt a need to be able to kill things without approaching the dangerous animals NO one has completely outright said I want this route because I know what will occur later or we should avoid this action because it will lead to a theocracy with the fire Wielder as leader cutting off any possibility of attempting trade or relationships of a peaceful nature for thousands of years till we die (wait someone did I wonder who? because this piece of meta information can't possibly be know to our tribe that has left their Eldest in charge of ruling for generations and seem happy to leave it at that)

And childish is somewhat of a stretch but you are constantly vomiting the same non-sense without providing any proof how is he planning this take over why would he? how come he is fine with leaving the water shaman religion if he is so intent on killing it off? remember he had a chance to a couple of updates ago without much trouble. yet he seems fine in things letting it flow its natural course which seems to his strategy eventually the water shamans will die off and fire will remain yet I am somewhat doubtful that he will be too violent at least for now

Don't want him to gain power then don't let him shackle the spirits all we need is him to cleanse the land then we can collect the obsidian our clan's lifeblood and hopefully a deposit of coal to melt that iron we got back at home remember we can suggest things to add on to options to change them slightly

He can convert the elementals he does have to I say we give him the orb but tell him to only quell the spirits if we got huge fire things walking around it be bad for morale

remember we can edit our choices slightly if we feel like it quell and dispersing the spirits should get the job done and avoid giving too much power to the Wielder

also I say send another water shaman see if we can fix the river on our way back clean water is essential for our tribe.

Whether or not Curufinwe accepts the changes is up to him but so far he has been a stand up guy
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,058
Location
NZ
Why would it be bad for morale? Personally I know I'd much rather have fire spirits that can't be harmed by conventional weaponry fighting by my side than on the enemies.
 

Cassidy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
7,922
Location
Vault City
Never trust a Djinn to fight by your side. Never trust a Djinn worshiper to lead an entire people.

But if you want a future Pakistan where Djinns actually exist...
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
Didn't Zoroastrians ascribe some sort of sacred status to flames? I think we could be something along the lines of ancient Persia.
 

TOME

Cuckmaster General
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
1,820
Other people are saying that the Wielder blocks us off from other magic, but I haven't seen any evidence that this other magic exists yet.

Why wouldn't it exist? We just haven't found it yet.

remember its a CYOA we have control over the tribe.

We don't have control of the tribe. We just vote for the given choices. The wielder might overthrow the council and then we might vote what the few resistance fighters do, not what the wielder does.

Don't want him to gain power then don't let him shackle the spirits all we need is him to cleanse the land

To do that we would have to give him the gem. And who says once the cleansing is done, he will give it back? And who says that he won't bind the spirits to himself? It is all guessworks. We don't know what he'll do. But I would rather play it safe because the wielder has been arrogant in the past. And he clearly wants to lead our tribe.

'With my power, the power that I will bestow on those who dare follow me, we will grow strong!'
 

Vernydar

Learned
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
579
Location
Italy
I do not think we would have no choices. He would keep advisors around. But it would be different choices, once the wielder rules the tribe. And if we give him the gem, he WILL rule the tribe.
This is an example of what I think the differences would be:

Situation: meet a new, small tribe of water followers

Elders council options:
1 - Leave them alone
2 - peaceful interaction, try to learn from them and trade
3 - Offer them to merge with our tribe for increased safety of everyone
4 - War and conquest

Wielder rules options:
1 - Conquer them and offer to convert or die
2 - They are heretics. Kill them
3 - Pretend to be friends, then mount a surprise attack and conquer them. Convert or die afterwards
4 - use them against another tribe so they are both weakened, then conquer them both

I think this is pretty realistic. I do not want the fire theocracy, thank you very much
 

Kipeci

Arcane
Joined
May 22, 2012
Messages
3,027
Location
Vicksburg
Why wouldn't it exist? We just haven't found it yet.
It probably does, but let's not bank on learning other magic to compensate for rejecting fire magic when we haven't encountered so much as any evidence that we could get other magic.
 

Bloodshifter

Educated
Joined
Jul 7, 2012
Messages
542
Location
Somewhere with dead bears
TOME that is a good point we don't control the wielder else he would not have been a jackass but we do still require Obsidian and I see no way of gathering it without his help we lost 4*I think* men to it returning at this point with the Wielder all high and mighty saying he could have gotten the Obsidian with the gem would still be a blow for the Council damned if we do damned if we don't.

As to magic the water people seem *and the wind tribe with the seer* to know a little not as much as us but hey what can you do...
 

Curufinwe

Learned
Joined
Apr 7, 2012
Messages
271
Location
Italy
So, ten votes for A against 6 for B. You guys really love your neighborhood friendly Wielder.

The expedition had been gone for two weeks. Days had been quiet at the settlement, with no note-worthy events.
Then, one afternoon, a boat could be seen approaching from the river. First a small dot, it slowly increased in size as it drew nearer, until everyone could see it was carrying two members of the expedition.
The council gathered quickly on the river's bank, fearing the worst, fearing everyone was lost. That particular fear was soon forgotten. But the men's report was disquieting.

Uneasy murmurs accompanied the tale, first when the scouts talked about the nightmarish change in scenery once the hills were left behind, then, even more, when the walking and beastly fire spirits were described.

But the worst was yet to come. One of the two finished his report: "Thus, when we saw the fighting prowess of those spirits, the Wielder sent us back, with the agreement of the rest of the expedition, with a request. He asks the council to bestow him the red stone, so he can communicate and perhaps convince the spirits to let us pass peacefully or, he said, even convince them to side with our tribe. We haven't found neither obsidian or coal, yet, but we were still a day or two away from the mountain's slopes. We need this, if the mission is to succeed."

The water shamans who were listening on the report immediately started shouting angrily: "You can't really consider this! It's a trick! It will come haunt us back later!" a few in the council nodded their heads in agreement.

The fire keepers were of a different position: "We have to listen to the Wielder. He has kept faith with the tribe for all this time, he could have created trouble but he didn't after we chastised him. And obtaining the help of these living fire spirits is paramount!" a few others nodded.

A fierce, but quick debate ensued. Shouts, curses and threats were exchanged, but in the end most of the council decided to entrust the two men, plus five more to avoid incidents, the gem, to be brought to the Wielder.

Two boats left that evening, loaded with more supplies and with a red stone.

Nothing further was heard in camp for three more weeks. Then a month. Talk had begun in the council to send a smaller expedition to check on the larger, when they came back.

They came back on foot, on the near side of the river. They came back, and they did not come back alone.

Marching along the expedition fire spirits could be seen. As big as men or bigger, they matched the scouts' descriptions. They strode forward next to the Wielder, twenty of them, full of purpose. What that purpose was, the council would soon find out.

The Wielder, accompanied by the expedition (with the notable absence of the water shaman) approached the village, then stopped.

The council came forward slowly, frightened by the fire spirits.

The Wielder stepped forward, the Gem held in his hand. He regarded the council, then smiled. It was not a kind smile: "So... elders. Here I am. After years of humiliation, here I am, back where it all started. With the Gem. And allies. - his smile suddenly vanished – I came back to collect my due. My destiny. I was chosen by the fire spirit. Chosen to rule, not to bow and scrape to a group of old, frightened men who will never take a risk, never make a move to greatness – he raised his voice to a shout, he could now clearly be heard in the whole settlement – This tribe was chosen! Chosen by the fire spirit as his proxy in our land! We are destined for conquest, we are chosen to submit the weak tribes surrounding us and make them strong, strong like we will be! Follow me in this new age! Follow me, to glory!"

He cooly regarded the council: "I am not ungrateful. You could have killed me, long ago, yet you didn't. Thus I will offer a choice... stand with me... or against me... what will it be?"

His eyes glowed, red with his inner fire, while he waited for an answer.

A. Some men in the onlooking crowds started to prostrate themselves to the ground, chanting the Wielder's name. The councilors, frightened by the fire spirits, had no choice but to imitate them.
B. In the middle of the crowd, armed men were gathering around the water shamans, spitting curses towards the wielder and forming a battle line. The councilors quickly made their way to them, making a stand.
C. On the outskirts of the crowd, during the speech, several men started quietly moving away towards their homes, obviously trying to grab some supplies and get away before things got ugly. The councilors retreated, joining them in their attempt to escape.


Ok guys. This is the most important choice so far in the second act. Think carefully, because whatever you choose, there is no going back. Voting on!
 

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