Incline OSR Games - Official thread

[7h30n]

One of the trends I notice in the OSR scene is the fixation on random tables, I'd go as far as calling it glorifying. Now, I get how encounter tables and loot tables are incredibly useful, as well as having a table with random names typical for the region, so that not every NPC the PCs encounter is called 'John'. But during a session I try to limit the amount of tables, because after a certain number it just becomes a mess and slows down play. Before I roll how the coat-of-arms of the randomly bypassing knight looks like, I just make it up on the spot.

Yep, I've noticed it too and it is impractical at the table. The only random tables I use at the table is for random encounters, and these are tuned to the area the party is in.

Other, large scale tables for adventure creation I typically use to fill out my map with random ideas & hooks, that I expand as players choose to pursue them. Players usually tell me what they want to do after a session is over, so I have time to prepare new content if needed. Choosing what to do is usually influenced by "newspapers" from the in-game world or some personal character motivation. E.g. in case of Star Wars I'm currently running (with Stars Without Number system), one player wishes to construct a lightsaber at some point, and that's a session or an adventure for itself. When the player notifies me "now is the time" I will prepare that content.

Soouu, I pretty much do the:

Or do you just use individual tables and look through the possible results when you just can't for the love of it come up with an idea for a name, a motivation or a patron that is not cliché for an otherwise 100% handcrafted scenario? Sorry for the wall of text

And sometimes

Do you roll up an adventure entirely just the way I described above, then take a long walk and ponder on how to make a good hook out of the nonsense?

But this usually leads me to change some of the rolled results as I come up with something better while trying to work out the randomness.

 

[Sacibengala]

Sincerely, in all my GM life, starting at 2000s, I always makes things up on the spot and worked just fine, but I never really got into OSR until some 3 years ago. At the beggining Iwas all about this hipster one page bullcrap that you mentioned. Not until a year or so I got to the real stuff, thanks to Gavin Norman from Necrotic Gnome, the LotFP SYSTEM, and Melan's stuff, Xyntillan to be exact. And of course, Bryce from tenfootpole and nowadays, by recommendations fromyou guys, Prince of nothing and his reviews (not got the chance to see his adventures stuff yet).

So, what I learned from all of this was what those guys say about oldschool all the time,that you need to understand the essence of rules and the classics to know how to do significant and useful content.
What I see from the majority out there, mainly by the DREAMERS crowd, is that they do stuff just for the sake of doing it, without the least of self criticism. They just shovel tables, and aesthetics and colors in our throats and we just eat it.

So, responding to your question: I only use tables that I feel that is useful in the mechanical sense. If it not makes any sense, and not facilitates my life at the table in any way, I'm learning to just ignore it, like the majority of crap that are being released these days.

 

[Morblot]

Re: random tables...

Back when I tried my hand at running SWN, I created the sector by using the random tables in the book, except for the starting world, which I mostly made up myself.

Big mistake, it turned out to be a really disjointed mess and I had a hard time making any of it work together logically... and unfortunately I only realized this once we had started playing. Ended up losing motivation to try and make something worthwhile out of it and now it's on an indefinite hiatus.

(edit: the one thing I'm still happy about is exactly the starting world I created by myself, I think I did pretty good, even if it's nothing groundbreaking.)

However, random encounter tables are great in my opinion also, and I don't mean just random monsters. There are some nice tables for such in one of Gavin Norman's Wormskin zines I've gotten good mileage out of in my OSE campaign, even though I'm not using Dolmenwood.

 

[nikolokolus]

The Tome of Adventure Design, isn't all that useful as some paint-by-numbers adventure generator, but what it really excels at is using it as a springboard to spurring creativity when you're stuck for ideas, particularly if you tend to run sandbox campaigns where there isn't a "story" so much as there is a huge collection of NPCs and factions with their own aims, desires, and goals. And yeah, there is a fetishization of random tables in a lot of OSR products, but if you can separate the gold nuggets from the dung heap, they can really stretch your game into directions that might not have pushed it otherwise because of your own biases, limitations to your own creativity, and every GM's blindspots to their own predictable tendencies.

Some of the better supplements I've used at the table:
Zzarchov Kowolski's has some great stuff: Scenic Dunnsmouth which is a great village/adventure generator that has hundreds of permutations making it completely reusable. Tools for the Lazy GM, includes a great random encounter generator by terrain type, a unique rampaging monster generator, and a few other things. Jason Sholtis' Dungeon Dozen is a collection of D12 tables from his blog that excels at creating weird fantasy encounters, objects, and scores of other things you might not have thought of. Central Casting: Heroes of Legend for creating really deep, interesting NPCs. Off the top of my head, I remember using the Bits of the Wilderness series of books for generating colorful random encounters that go beyond the stock bandits/goblins/farmers/wolves.

 

[Melan]

Are you using that stuff live on the table? Like "Sorry GM, our PC's don't feel like going after any one of your hooks" - "Okay let me roll something new on the spot".
Do you roll up an adventure entirely just the way I described above, then take a long walk and ponder on how to make a good hook out of the nonsense?
Or do you just use individual tables and look through the possible results when you just can't for the love of it come up with an idea for a name, a motivation or a patron that is not cliché for an otherwise 100% handcrafted scenario? Sorry for the wall of text

I use the ToAD fairly often during adventure preparation, but not in a systematic way. I simply roll on a handful of tables to generate a handful of interesting combinations and set my mind in motion. Not everything the ToAD creates is useful, and you need to exercise judgement when using it, but its individual tables are good to outright great. For example, I have gotten a lot of mileage out of the tables for location concepts (the first tables), and yes, I have used the mission generator for situation-based adventures. I use them before the game, not during it, though.

One-page dungeons, however, are usually useless. They could be done well, but few people who actually write them possess the skills to be good in the super-terse format they force authors into. One-pagers have since that time evolved into "pamphlet dungeons" (even smaller) and whatever crap people are pushing on itch.io (minimal text with some fancy artwork, the barest of design efforts). The one-page format was a cool gimmick when it started but a terrible design trend when it spread.

 

[Sacibengala]

I believe that the only one page format that I still like a lot is stonehell, but in reality it isn't really one pageat all, only in the presentation of the floors descriptions.

 

[Snorkack]

Thanks for the perspectives. When I see random tables, my lizard brain can't help but think that theyare rules, meant to be used during play, otherwise they would just have been simple lists.
But happy to hear that I'm not the only one who perceives a fethishization of tables just for the table's sake

 

[Cryomancer]

Any so many original retroclones but so few 2e retroclones?

Anyway, my first session in more than 10 years will start soon. We will use milestone leveling. And no XP by combat. My party is caster heavy. 3 Magic users(myself included), 1 Druid and 1 cleric. Will gonna be fun. Our druid is already near lv 5. I will see shapeshifters in my first campaign.

S&W seems pretty interesting and no, I an not wanting to play S&W only cuz "powerful magic", if I just wanted powerful magic, I would play as a Arcanist on PF1e. There are no stronger magic user on the story of D&D and similar games than ARcanist on PF1e. The best of prepared + the best of spontaneous caster + magic exploits + a lot of spell slots.

 

[Bara]

Hows DCC Lankhmar for use as a setting book or am I better off using the old TSR book for it?

I ask as its on sale at bundle of holding. Though I have warmed up to DCC after playing a few games still more interested in using Lankhmar for B/X or OSE.

 

[Sacibengala]

Hows DCC Lankhmar for use as a setting book or am I better off using the old TSR book for it?

I ask as its on sale at bundle of holding. Though I have warmed up to DCC after playing a few games still more interested in using Lankhmar for B/X or OSE.

Where are the pdfs from? They send you a generic download link or it is from drivethrurpg or the goodman games webstore?

 

[Bara]

Where are the pdfs from? They send you a generic download link or it is from drivethrurpg or the goodman games webstore?

Drivethrurpg. You use the same email address as your dtrpg account and it'll be automatically added there.

 

[nikolokolus]

DCC Lankhmar is an outstanding product, particularly because it gives a nice overview of not just the city proper, but a lot of the areas in Newhon. The DCC modules also do a great job of fleshing out some of the particulars like Ningauble's cave, the thieves house and a whole lot more.

I've been doing a lot of campaign prep for a possible Mythras-based Lankhmar game and the DCC material is usually the first thing I reach for (and I own the Mongoose RQ2-based books, the Savage Worlds stuff, and everything TSR ever produced for the setting).

 

[Stella Brando]

A Nehwon set game would be excellent.

Boy, all this talk about Lankhmar makes me think of the Codex's popular SWORD & SORCERY thread.

 

[Bara]

Finally got a few games of Dungeon Crawl Classics in. Liked the system enough to pick up the the book in print along with Lankhmar and empire of the east.

I still prefer B/X | OSE over it for its simple and elegant design but I can't deny that DCC is really good for punchy adventures. Though it helps we were using Foundry VTT plugin for DCC as it had all the tables set up for us automatically and we didn't have to keep pulling out the charts. It's really worth the asking price of $15 bucks I got to say.

I have noted though that finding games online there really folks only seem to be running the modules that are very dungeon focused in Dungeon Crawl Classics. Is that just a fact that most of the adventures for it are designed with a dungeon focus in mind or that the system really doesn't work for long term campaigns that trek across a open world I can't say. Least not till I try DMing it.

 

[catfood]

The system most definitely works for long term campaigns because the characters can accumulate various long lasting effects (almost always negative) that can come into play later on and a GM can whole do campaigns around them. Corruption and patron/deity shenanigans are good adventure seeds.

Yes, most of the published adventures are dungeons. I guess it's because the word is part of the name of this product. But there are also some larger adventures, mainly box sets such as for example Peril on the Purple Planet, or The Chained Coffin, which come with lots of overland travel and exploration too.

Personally I run my own custom campaign and integrate published modules every now and again to spice things up. Their only bad part is that they are on the linear side. The art design in them is gorgeous and the players love to look at the maps and artwork that come with them.

 

[Catacombs]

Finally got a few games of Dungeon Crawl Classics in.

Are you playing IRL or online?

 

[Bara]

Finally got a few games of Dungeon Crawl Classics in.

Are you playing IRL or online?

Online with my irl group till pandemics over.

 

[Mortmal]

Finally got a few games of Dungeon Crawl Classics in. Liked the system enough to pick up the the book in print along with Lankhmar and empire of the east.

I still prefer B/X | OSE over it for its simple and elegant design but I can't deny that DCC is really good for punchy adventures. Though it helps we were using Foundry VTT plugin for DCC as it had all the tables set up for us automatically and we didn't have to keep pulling out the charts. It's really worth the asking price of $15 bucks I got to say.

I have noted though that finding games online there really folks only seem to be running the modules that are very dungeon focused in Dungeon Crawl Classics. Is that just a fact that most of the adventures for it are designed with a dungeon focus in mind or that the system really doesn't work for long term campaigns that trek across a open world I can't say. Least not till I try DMing it.

Using VTT foundry and other virtual tabletop is ton of preparation, you can just draw sketchs an go with it, but really it's better to draw good maps , import them have tokens ready. It forces some railroading, you wont go full open world and improvisation, but its perfect for dungeon crawling, thats what you are going to do most often . Basically the DM is a computer who run a crpg D&D (broad term) game., but with smart AI ,giving you options you can only get in titles like fallout but even more. It's like an hybrid of pen and paper rpg and an elite SSI gold box version.

 

[Bara]

I always liked Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea's Dunken Debauchery table for divorcing characters from their ill-gotten gains. It works pretty well as an idea generator for the next adventure too.

Nikolokolus you've mentioned AS&SH before. Thoughts on the game/lbook itself? I hear they're doing a kickstarter soon for a Third version of the core book soon that'll be split in two volumes.

 

[nikolokolus]

I always liked Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea's Dunken Debauchery table for divorcing characters from their ill-gotten gains. It works pretty well as an idea generator for the next adventure too.

Nikolokolus you've mentioned AS&SH before. Thoughts on the game/lbook itself? I hear they're doing a kickstarter soon for a Third version of the core book soon that'll be split in two volumes.

I think the fluff and the setting write-up is pretty inspired. I borrowed heavily from it when I ran a play-by-post game here on the Codex for about 2+ years awhile back. It does a great job of capturing some of the themes and tone of the holy trinity of Weird Tales: R.E. Howard, Lovecraft and Clark Ashton Smith (especially leaning on Smith's Hyperborea-based stories like The Seven Geases, The Tale of Satampra Zeiros, and The Coming of the White Worm for example).

I think the mechanics and presentation are about as good as they can be as a sort of AD&D, OD&D mashup. It has a D12-based skill system, lots of classes to choose from and both the first and second edition had some really great evocative art (I favored the first edition's charcoals and pencil sketches over the more comic-book style of Val Semeiks in the second, but it's not "bad"). I like that it's going back to the 2 volume split; that's how the first version of the game was (2 coil bound books in a boxed set). The second edition was a very nice, single-volume, smythe bound hardback, that fleshed out the setting a bit more, but it was skippable if you owned the first set (none of the mechanics changed, it just added a couple of new classes)

Personally, I tend to think a class and level system based on D&D (even a TSR-based version) is a bad fit for the source material. The kind of "medieval superheroes" D&D creates after about 6th level don't really match the Lovecraftian sword & sorcery genre where the heroes in Smith's stories frequently meet a bad end at the hands of powers from the Outer Dark, but there's plenty to mine in the GM's section of the rules to adapt it to a different rules system of your choice (I think Mythras would be a good choice personally or even Call of Cthulhu: Dark Ages).

 

[Melan]

My only serious problem with AS&SH is the weight of the second edition book. It is not comfortable to lug around in a briefcase, take it with you to a café, or even take it with you while travelling. This hampers adventure writing.

 

[Morblot]

How long is it? These days I'd much rather have a single 64 page booklet than three tomes of 500+ pages each.

 

[nikolokolus]

How long is it? These days I'd much rather have a single 64 page booklet than three tomes of 500+ pages each.

620+ pages, but that's it, no separate bestiary, GM's guide, etc. (and it includes a sample adventure IIRC, the full setting gazetteer, a rogues gallery, etc.).

 

[Sacibengala]

My only serious problem with AS&SH is the weight of the second edition book. It is not comfortable to lug around in a briefcase, take it with you to a café, or even take it with you while travelling. This hampers adventure writing.

Not related, but for some time now, I'm having a hard time loading your old fomalhaut.lfg.hu website. I tried 2 different browsers and it just never loads. I wonder if it is a regional thing, I'm in Brazil.

 

[Melan]

Might be. It never produced those problems for me.

One a different note, T. Foster has released The Heroic Legendarium, the official version of his netbook, the AD&D Companion. This is, basically, Unearthed Arcana 2 for 1st edition AD&D, except done right - a grab-bag of stuff for both players and Dungeon Masters. It reconstructs the new classes Gary was promising for 2nd edition AD&D before he was ousted from TSR (the mountebank, the jester, the savant), adds a functional bard class with a great spell list, adapts some later gygaxiana from other games, the Gord the Rogue novels, and elsewhere. It also features a lot of stuff from T. Foster's own ideas, including dungeon mastering advice, domain management rules, and of course lots of monsters and magic items.

There are a lot of similar products, but here is a difference: Trent knows the game like the back of his hand, and gets the more baroque late AD&D aesthetic better than anyone else. It feels like the development path AD&D could have taken, but didn't. This book is, simply put, very well done.

This is a PDF, but a print edition is also forthcoming.