Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[toro]

Well, I fancied with the idea to play a caster but the only appealing options for me are Air/Fire Elementalists or a Summoner ... and I simply cannot do it. I don't have the will to play a caster.

Therefore I went partial min-max for another two-handed build:

Feats selected at level 1: Toughness, Great Fortitude is equivalent to 4 levels of CON (without HP bonus) and Intimidating Prowess in order to counter the low Charisma.
Feat at level 2: Power Attack
Feat at level 3: Improved Great Fortitude (Yeah, I'm that retarded)

But for once my build feels somewhat alright: hits like a truck and it's hard to get hit. I have everything I need and now I can start developing Cleave or Bull Rush (still undecided). Bellow is a screenshot at level 1.

If even this build lets me down after mid-game then I'm going to lose it ... and I will have to go Paladin.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Well, I fancied with the idea to play a caster but the only appealing options to me were Air/Fire Elementalists or a Summoner ... and I simply cannot do it. I don't have the will to play a caster.

Therefore I went partial min-max for another two-handed build:

Spoiler

Could you share that portrait, lad?

 

[Yosharian]

Well, I fancied with the idea to play a caster but the only appealing options for me are Air/Fire Elementalists or a Summoner ... and I simply cannot do it. I don't have the will to play a caster.

Therefore I went partial min-max for another two-handed build:

Feats selected at level 1: Toughness, Great Fortitude is equivalent to 4 levels of CON (without HP bonus) and Intimidating Prowess in order to counter the low Charisma.
Feat at level 2: Power Attack
Feat at level 3: Improved Great Fortitude (Yeah, I'm that retarded)

But for once my build feels somewhat alright: hits like a truck and it's hard to get hit. I have everything I need and now I can start developing Cleave or Bull Rush (still undecided). Bellow is a screenshot at level 1.

If even this build lets me down after mid-game then I'm going to lose it ... and I will have to go Paladin.

So, your Will and Reflex saves are going to be dire. Have you planned for that?

 

[toro]

Could you share that portrait, lad?

Try: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1734340257885097701/

Direct download link: https://ufile.io/ki07j

 

[Yosharian]

Could you share that portrait, lad?

I believe it's from here, but don't quote me

https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1734340257885097701/

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Good lads. Thanks.

 

[toro]

Well, I fancied with the idea to play a caster but the only appealing options for me are Air/Fire Elementalists or a Summoner ... and I simply cannot do it. I don't have the will to play a caster.

Therefore I went partial min-max for another two-handed build:

Feats selected at level 1: Toughness, Great Fortitude is equivalent to 4 levels of CON (without HP bonus) and Intimidating Prowess in order to counter the low Charisma.
Feat at level 2: Power Attack
Feat at level 3: Improved Great Fortitude (Yeah, I'm that retarded)

But for once my build feels somewhat alright: hits like a truck and it's hard to get hit. I have everything I need and now I can start developing Cleave or Bull Rush (still undecided). Bellow is a screenshot at level 1.

If even this build lets me down after mid-game then I'm going to lose it ... and I will have to go Paladin.

So, your Will and Reflex saves are going to be dire. Have you planned for that?

Not in great details

My previous build provided equal Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves and it sucked balls soon after chapter 1.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that Fortitude is the most important save for a front-liner and the scale of importance is like this: Fortitude > Will > Reflex.

That's why I decided to buff Fortitude as high as possible, I intend to use casters to buff Will saves while Reflex ... well, I got no solution for this except that I will try to take down enemies casters/archers as fast as possible (which I will do anyway).

I could have increased WIS instead of INT but that's like +1 Will save versus +1 Skill per level. I don't know.

 

[Yosharian]

Well, I fancied with the idea to play a caster but the only appealing options for me are Air/Fire Elementalists or a Summoner ... and I simply cannot do it. I don't have the will to play a caster.

Therefore I went partial min-max for another two-handed build:

Feats selected at level 1: Toughness, Great Fortitude is equivalent to 4 levels of CON (without HP bonus) and Intimidating Prowess in order to counter the low Charisma.
Feat at level 2: Power Attack
Feat at level 3: Improved Great Fortitude (Yeah, I'm that retarded)

But for once my build feels somewhat alright: hits like a truck and it's hard to get hit. I have everything I need and now I can start developing Cleave or Bull Rush (still undecided). Bellow is a screenshot at level 1.

If even this build lets me down after mid-game then I'm going to lose it ... and I will have to go Paladin.

So, your Will and Reflex saves are going to be dire. Have you planned for that?

Not in great details

My previous build provided equal Fortitude, Reflex and Will saves and it sucked balls soon after chapter 1.

Maybe I'm wrong but it seems that Fortitude is the most important save for a front-liner and the scale of importance is like this: Fortitude > Will > Reflex.

That's why I decided to buff Fortitude as high as possible, I intend to use casters to buff Will saves while Reflex ... well, I got no solution for this except that I will try to take down enemies casters/archers as fast as possible (which I will do anyway).

I could have increased WIS instead of INT but that's like +1 Will save versus +1 Skill per level. I don't know.

To be clear, I think the fact that you're buffing your strongest save is a very good thing.

But you definitely need to plan around your other saves. Have a Cleric or other supporting caster that can provide a method of breaking Will-save targeting effects on your character. For example, the 5th-level spell Break Enchantment.

Reflex, well you're gonna get hit hard by Evocation spells and stuff like Entangle.

 

[Lawntoilet]

Can anyone tell me how sneak attacks work in this game? Is flanking the only requirement? What if you're under the effect of greater invisibility? Do all attacks get the bonus damage or just the first one? What if you're a spellcaster? Does it apply to melee and ranged touch spells? If so, how do spells like Scorching Ray work? Do you get a sneak attack bonus on each ray or just the first one that hits?

Great Invis. allows you to sneak attack as long as it lasts, provided enemies don't have something like true sight.
All attacks get the sneak attack bonus including shield bash, nice when dual wielding.
Spell casting is kinda weird, I'm not sure it's supposed to apply but a 1 vivisectionist/9 eldritch archer/10 arcane trickster using Scorching Ray does sneak attack on with each ray AND the bow attack. Dunno if AoE spells apply sneak attacks.

The game applies sneak attack for ranged touch spells, which is why it works for scorching ray. AOE spells will not get sneak attack.

Does the Arcane Trickster stance apply Sneak Attack to your AoEs?

 

[vazha]

Not to mention he's gonna be molested by every dryad and nymph and their ilk with charms, hold persons etc. That is why that pally 2 dip is always worth it

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Not to mention he's gonna be molested by every dryad and nymph and their ilk with charms, hold persons etc. That is why that pally 2 dip is always worth it

Doesn't that force you to remain Lawful Good throughout the game in order to retain what you've gained, though?

 

[vazha]

Not to mention he's gonna be molested by every dryad and nymph and their ilk with charms, hold persons etc. That is why that pally 2 dip is always worth it

Doesn't that force you to remain Lawful Good throughout the game in order to retain what you've gained, though?

Yes, but unless you despise that limitation due to rp reasons, you have to go pretty evil route to ever endanger your lawful good alignment.

 

[Cael]

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Identical but different. I'd clap but that's a wasted effort.

Paizotards should be shot for the abuse of the English language.

 

[Yosharian]

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Identical but different. I'd clap but that's a wasted effort.

Paizotards should be shot for the abuse of the English language.

Heh ok, you got me there. Fine, identical aside from the restriction.

My point stands, you stubborn arse! The abilities have the same name, they do not stack!

 

[Cael]

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Identical but different. I'd clap but that's a wasted effort.

Paizotards should be shot for the abuse of the English language.

Heh ok, you got me there. Fine, identical aside from the restriction.

My point stands, you stubborn arse! The abilities have the same name, they do not stack!

Please look at Uncanny Dodge, which is a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes. Please iterate what it says when you do have a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes.

 

[Yosharian]

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Identical but different. I'd clap but that's a wasted effort.

Paizotards should be shot for the abuse of the English language.

Heh ok, you got me there. Fine, identical aside from the restriction.

My point stands, you stubborn arse! The abilities have the same name, they do not stack!

Please look at Uncanny Dodge, which is a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes. Please iterate what it says when you do have a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes.

Whenever there is that possibility, it states that you get improved uncanny dodge. You don't get 2x uncanny dodge.

No such thing is stated for Canny Defense

 

[Cael]

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Identical but different. I'd clap but that's a wasted effort.

Paizotards should be shot for the abuse of the English language.

Heh ok, you got me there. Fine, identical aside from the restriction.

My point stands, you stubborn arse! The abilities have the same name, they do not stack!

Please look at Uncanny Dodge, which is a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes. Please iterate what it says when you do have a truly identical ability that can come from several different classes.

Whenever there is that possibility, it states that you get improved uncanny dodge. You don't get 2x uncanny dodge.

No such thing is stated for Canny Defense

Precisely. The writers are clear that truly identical abilities do not stack and they tell you what to do when you encounter such a thing. The problem is that the Canny Defence ability is not identical other than the name of the ability. Just because they have the same name means nothing. It is what the ability entails that we need to look at, and by your own admission that is not the same (different restrictions).

Much of the confusion stems from this article by Skip Williams. In it, he used the term "same name". However, if you look at his article, he is actually talking about type, not name. That is, circumstance bonus, dodge, bonus, etc. Those are types, not names.

Remember, the guy works for WotC, so a massive amount of incompetence is a pre-requisite. You just have to actually look at what he is trying to convey rather than his actual words because they will contradict each other 99% of the time. Just look at the Rainbow Servant prestige class as a classic example. In the original version, it was a 6/10 caster according to the table, but a 10/10 caster in the words below it. According to the rules, the words takes precedence over the table, so Rainbow Servant is a 10/10 caster. But the dramafags screamed bloody murder, so the next iteration (a non-English language one) had it at 6/10 in the words, giving the dramafags the ammo they were baying for. Then, in the last iteration (the Portuguese version) before WotC went on to seal the deal on their incompetence with 4th Ed, they changed it to 10/10 in both table and words.

Such is the WotC way. Incompetence writ large.

So, therefore, the question is: Does Canny Defence give a typed bonus to AC? It is dodge, circumstance, deflection, sacred/unholy, racial, etc.? If it is unnamed, dodge, circumstance, racial or synergy, it stacks.

 

[Yosharian]

If ability 1 is Canny Defense and ability 2 is Canny Defense with a slight restriction it is illogical to say that you get two versions of Canny Defense which give 2 bonuses.

It just doesn't make sense.

If you wanna argue that Paizo are idiots for not making it clear, or using the same name, that's fine, but they don't give two bonuses

 

[Cael]

If ability 1 is Canny Defense and ability 2 is Canny Defense with a slight restriction it is illogical to say that you get two versions of Canny Defense which give 2 bonuses.

It just doesn't make sense.

If you wanna argue that Paizo are idiots for not making it clear, or using the same name, that's fine, but they don't give two bonuses

If they are idiots for using the same name, that implies that they should have used two different names, which would then allow the bonuses to stack :D

Remember that the thing is a game, and a game is a set of rules. The rules do not have to make sense. I mean, why is it an offence to change your shirt in a tennis match when it is 45C and you are completely soaked with sweat? Doesn't make sense, but there you go.

The problem is rules inconsistency, and that really raises my hackles because it shows a lack cross-checking, which is, of course, an endemic thing in WotC and it seems that Paizo has inherited the rot.

 

[Yosharian]

If ability 1 is Canny Defense and ability 2 is Canny Defense with a slight restriction it is illogical to say that you get two versions of Canny Defense which give 2 bonuses.

It just doesn't make sense.

If you wanna argue that Paizo are idiots for not making it clear, or using the same name, that's fine, but they don't give two bonuses

If they are idiots for using the same name, that implies that they should have used two different names, which would then allow the bonuses to stack :D

Remember that the thing is a game, and a game is a set of rules. The rules do not have to make sense. I mean, why is it an offence to change your shirt in a tennis match when it is 45C and you are completely soaked with sweat? Doesn't make sense, but there you go.

The problem is rules inconsistency, and that really raises my hackles because it shows a lack cross-checking, which is, of course, an endemic thing in WotC and it seems that Paizo has inherited the rot.

Now there I agree, it was extremely lazy of them to use the same ability and call it a day.

Regardless, it seems clear as day to me that the class levels from both Duelist and Kensai should stack to determine the maximum intelligence bonus to AC.

That's the interaction that makes the most sense to me.

 

[Cael]

If ability 1 is Canny Defense and ability 2 is Canny Defense with a slight restriction it is illogical to say that you get two versions of Canny Defense which give 2 bonuses.

It just doesn't make sense.

If you wanna argue that Paizo are idiots for not making it clear, or using the same name, that's fine, but they don't give two bonuses

If they are idiots for using the same name, that implies that they should have used two different names, which would then allow the bonuses to stack :D

Remember that the thing is a game, and a game is a set of rules. The rules do not have to make sense. I mean, why is it an offence to change your shirt in a tennis match when it is 45C and you are completely soaked with sweat? Doesn't make sense, but there you go.

The problem is rules inconsistency, and that really raises my hackles because it shows a lack cross-checking, which is, of course, an endemic thing in WotC and it seems that Paizo has inherited the rot.

Now there I agree, it was extremely lazy of them to use the same ability and call it a day.

Regardless, it seems clear as day to me that the class levels from both Duelist and Kensai should stack to determine the maximum intelligence bonus to AC.

That's the interaction that makes the most sense to me.

I would think that it is hard to get +20 bonus to a stat. Even +10 would be stretching it. Allowing the levels to stack would (marginally) encourage dipping, which is something that Paizo was adamant it wanted to stamp out in Pathfinder. Never forget that Paizo was originally composed of a bunch of fucktard dramafags who hated how open and large 3.5 was, calling the options and opportunities to create viable builds of iconic superheroes a bad thing and a decline of RPG (the irony of that statement).

Of course, they have since moved away from that claim, and if anything, seem to have created a mess that is worse than anything 3.5 ever came up with...

 

[J1M]

The "it's slightly different, so it should stack" argument is a little weird. It's like saying that a +4 enhancement bonus and a +6 enhancement bonus are slightly different so they should stack.

There's also the matter that Canny Defense isn't really acting like a feat, it's acting more like a caster level or similar in that you have 5 stacks of it at level 5 in that class.

Allow me to highlight how badly this needs an errata by being truly pedantic:

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

So according to the Rules As Written, all the Kensai version does is allow you to use your Kensai weapon when counting your Duelist levels towards a dodge bonus. If you don't have any Duelist levels, your Kensai shouldn't be seeing an AC boost.

 

[Yosharian]

The "it's slightly different, so it should stack" argument is a little weird. It's like saying that a +4 enhancement bonus and a +6 enhancement bonus are slightly different so they should stack.

There's also the matter that Canny Defense isn't really acting like a feat, it's acting more like a caster level or similar in that you have 5 stacks of it at level 5 in that class.

Allow me to highlight how badly this needs an errata by being truly pedantic:

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

So according to the Rules As Written, all the Kensai version does is allow you to use your Kensai weapon when counting your Duelist levels towards a dodge bonus. If you don't have any Duelist levels, your Kensai shouldn't be seeing an AC boost.

 

[Cael]

The "it's slightly different, so it should stack" argument is a little weird. It's like saying that a +4 enhancement bonus and a +6 enhancement bonus are slightly different so they should stack.

There's also the matter that Canny Defense isn't really acting like a feat, it's acting more like a caster level or similar in that you have 5 stacks of it at level 5 in that class.

Allow me to highlight how badly this needs an errata by being truly pedantic:

Canny Defense (Ex)
At 1st level, when a kensai is wielding his chosen weapon, he gains the canny defense ability. This is identical to the duelist prestige class ability of the same name, save that his chosen weapon may be of any type.

Canny Defense (Ex)
When wearing light or no armor and not using a shield, a duelist adds 1 point of Intelligence bonus (if any) per duelist class level as a dodge bonus to her Armor Class while wielding a melee weapon. If a duelist is caught flat-footed or otherwise denied her Dexterity bonus, she also loses this bonus.

So according to the Rules As Written, all the Kensai version does is allow you to use your Kensai weapon when counting your Duelist levels towards a dodge bonus. If you don't have any Duelist levels, your Kensai shouldn't be seeing an AC boost.

Lol! That is pretty bad. Someone just lazily referred to the Duellist class (a 3.5 PrC straight from the DMG, by the way). There are good reasons to always write out everything, and one of them is plain to see here.

Paizo, ladies and gents.

rofls!

By the way, enhancement bonus don't stack. That is part of the same type of bonus don't stack rule. Uncanny Defence is typeless as far as I can see, and those most definitely stack.

 

[hell bovine]

But for once my build feels somewhat alright: hits like a truck and it's hard to get hit.

Meanwhile a level one smilodon gets five attacks per round, apparently. Should've gone summoner.