Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker Builds and Strats Thread

[Lawntoilet]

Puts another tick against "Owlcat fuckups" column.

Their explanation was basically "there's no asian stuff in this part of the world," and sword saint is a direct translation of the Japanese. One rare case where we know it was a conscious design decision.

I will say that I'm very glad there are no katana or wakizashi floating around in Pathfinder's faux feudal Europe. My barony is no one's co-prosperity sphere.

Cantonese, actually. Sword Saint is a translation of Khim Sun, which can be literally translated to "Sword God" or "Sword Saint" (Khim = sword, Sun = God/Saint; there are few distinctions between the two).

Trust otakus to fuck it up and make it Japanese.

Kensai, however, IS Japanese. It is their version of Sword Saint. Why is that in the game?

Wait so Sword Saint comes from Chinese, but Paizo implemented an archetype called Sword Saint under the Samurai class, which is Japanese? And then put the Kensai (which logically should be the version of the Sword Saint that is a Samurai) under the non-Japanese Magus class? This is making my head hurt.

Either way, yeah, there is no Samurai class in Kingmaker and there are no Asian names, so the name "Kensai" would be out of place. I wish they had ignored the archetype altogether and implemented Staff Magus instead, personally.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Either way, yeah, there is no Samurai class in Kingmaker and there are no Asian names, so the name "Kensai" would be out of place. I wish they had ignored the archetype altogether and implemented Staff Magus instead, personally.

no way, they should've replaced it with Bladebound.

A select group of magi are called to carry a black blade—a sentient weapon of often unknown and possibly unknowable purpose. These weapons become valuable tools and allies, as both the magus and weapon typically crave arcane power, but as a black blade becomes more aware, its true motivations manifest, and as does its ability to influence its wielder with its ever-increasing ego.

 

[Cael]

Wait so Sword Saint comes from Chinese, but Paizo implemented an archetype called Sword Saint under the Samurai class, which is Japanese? And then put the Kensai (which logically should be the version of the Sword Saint that is a Samurai) under the non-Japanese Magus class? This is making my head hurt.

Either way, yeah, there is no Samurai class in Kingmaker and there are no Asian names, so the name "Kensai" would be out of place. I wish they had ignored the archetype altogether and implemented Staff Magus instead, personally.

I believe the first to be implemented was the Kensai class a la BG2, and that one was based on the Chinese wuxia type swordsman: fast, melee specialists who don't wear armour and depend on speed and agility to dodge attacks. They called it using a Japanese name.

Then 3.5 came along, and in Complete Warrior (I think, please check), they introduced the Kensai class, which has no Oriental counterpart (what with enchanting your own weapon, etc.).

However, the melee classes were underpowered, so they introduced the Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords, which "updated" the Fighter, Paladin and Monk via Warblade, Crusader and (you guessed it) Sword Saint respectively. This was explicitly stated to be based on the wuxia movies, and their strikes, counters and stances were very wuxia. Well, wuxia is Chinese, not Japanese, specifically made popular by a slew of Hong Kong movies and serials dating back to the 80s (think Bruce Lee era).

Paizo then took up everything 3.5 and did their own run on it, but with very little understanding of the history or the meaning of the names. They basically just copied the names and added in kewl stuff that seem to be in line with the name. Typical Paizo copy and paste kitchen sink crap, in other words.

So, yes, making your head hurt is the ultimate result because Paizo, with typical Paizo-ness, have no fucking idea what they were doing.

 

[Cael]

Kensai, however, IS Japanese. It is their version of Sword Saint. Why is that in the game?

is it not a popular Magus archetype? I think they included it because so many people liked playing BG2 as Kensai/Mage so they wanted it in.

It is popular because both classes dovetails incredibly well. Both don't wear armour and the strengths of one negates the weaknesses of the other. If Archer/Mage was a possible class combination, that one would have been far more popular.

As for Bladebound, the problem with ego weapons that grow in power is that you eventually have to start making Will saves to avoid getting Dominated, and that is bad. A 1 in 20 chance of getting Dominated that you have to roll every single day is frakking annoying, to put it mildly. Ego items are bad in general.

 

[Yosharian]

Either way, yeah, there is no Samurai class in Kingmaker and there are no Asian names, so the name "Kensai" would be out of place. I wish they had ignored the archetype altogether and implemented Staff Magus instead, personally.

no way, they should've replaced it with Bladebound.

A select group of magi are called to carry a black blade—a sentient weapon of often unknown and possibly unknowable purpose. These weapons become valuable tools and allies, as both the magus and weapon typically crave arcane power, but as a black blade becomes more aware, its true motivations manifest, and as does its ability to influence its wielder with its ever-increasing ego.

I agree, Bladebound would have been far more interesting. I think there were implementation issues with that class, though. They were interested in putting it in the game, I think.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I believe the first to be implemented was the Kensai class a la BG2, and that one was based on the Chinese wuxia type swordsman: fast, melee specialists who don't wear armour and depend on speed and agility to dodge attacks. They called it using a Japanese name.

You could argue that this also has a lot in common with Edo period Japanese swordsmen, too. Musashi for the most obvious example. Although how much those guys owed to Wudang Jian I don't know.

 

[Zero Credibility]

It is popular because both classes dovetails incredibly well. Both don't wear armour and the strengths of one negates the weaknesses of the other. If Archer/Mage was a possible class combination, that one would have been far more popular.

Er, there is an archer mage magus archetype in Pathfinder and in the game. Why do I get the feeling you have not played either?

 

[Cael]

I believe the first to be implemented was the Kensai class a la BG2, and that one was based on the Chinese wuxia type swordsman: fast, melee specialists who don't wear armour and depend on speed and agility to dodge attacks. They called it using a Japanese name.

You could argue that this also has a lot in common with Edo period Japanese swordsmen, too. Musashi for the most obvious example. Although how much those guys owed to Wudang Jian I don't know.

Japanese swordsmanship tends to have less movement of the body. They are more towards strikes and counters while being perfectly balanced. Wuxia is all about leaping and positioning, which I took the BG2 Kensai to be aiming towards with the +2 dodge AC and increased movement speed. Plus, if you have watched wuxia movies, the heroes are always running from one place to another. It is practically a trope in itself in wuxia comics, serials and movies.

 

[Cael]

It is popular because both classes dovetails incredibly well. Both don't wear armour and the strengths of one negates the weaknesses of the other. If Archer/Mage was a possible class combination, that one would have been far more popular.

Er, there is an archer mage magus archetype in Pathfinder and in the game. Why do I get the feeling you have not played either?

We were talking about BG2, not Pathfinder. Learn reading comprehension.

 

[Zero Credibility]

No we are not, the poster you quoted said it was a popular magus archetype.

 

[Cael]

No we are not, the poster you quoted said it was a popular magus archetype.

Kensai, however, IS Japanese. It is their version of Sword Saint. Why is that in the game?

is it not a popular Magus archetype? I think they included it because so many people liked playing BG2 as Kensai/Mage so they wanted it in.

I bolded the relevant bits.

I replied by saying that it was popular because they worked together so well. If it was possible to be a Archer/Mage in BG2, it would be more popular than Kensai/Mage (because of how the abilities of each class worked together).

In other words, it was popular because it worked well, not because of the name.

As I said, learn reading comprehension.

Also, as I said in the past when you tried this same type of petty gotcha shit: You picked your name well.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Maybe you should try writing things you actually mean then, because in the first part of you response you clearly are talking about Pathfinder (is it not a popular magus archetype? it is popular because...). This combined with your posts on the previous page makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.

 

[Cael]

Maybe you should try writing things you actually mean then, because in the first part of you response you clearly are talking about Pathfinder (is it not a popular magus archetype? it is popular because...). This combined with your posts on the previous page makes you look like you have no clue what you are talking about.

Only to people who lack reading comprehension, kid. Hence my advice to you.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Rereading your posts on the last page, I stand corrected: you really have no clue what you are talking about. First you had no clue what the sword saint was in the game, then you had no clue what kensai was in Pathfinder. You clearly had not played the game, yet you feel compelled to answer questions about it.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Japanese swordsmanship tends to have less movement of the body. They are more towards strikes and counters while being perfectly balanced. Wuxia is all about leaping and positioning, which I took the BG2 Kensai to be aiming towards with the +2 dodge AC and increased movement speed. Plus, if you have watched wuxia movies, the heroes are always running from one place to another. It is practically a trope in itself in wuxia comics, serials and movies.

Running? More like flying. I was so happy when Red Cliff used a lot of wuxia style camera work but with much less fantastical fighting.

Anyway, I think Kensai was always intended to be more Japanese inflected. They learn Iaijutsu. In the 1st edition Oriental Adventures guide they can turn into bushi if they lose too much honor. Really, every class in OA is Japanese except for the Wu Jen (admittedly, my only exposure to OA was from a Japanese dungeon master who rejiggered some of this stuff for a 2nd edition campaign that didn't turn out that well). The Kensai's AC bonus could just as easily come from parrying and it's not like those guys aren't fast, even if they're more focused on economy of effort. I always saw the Kensai as being like the brilliant fencer in Seven Samurai who poetically gets shot to death at the end.

 

[Cael]

Rereading your posts on the last page, I stand corrected: you really have no clue what you are talking about. First you had no clue what the sword saint was in the game, then you had no clue what kensai was in Pathfinder. You clearly had not played the game, yet you feel compelled to answer questions about it.

The fact that we are having a conversation that you are interrupting proves that not only do you have zero credibility and lack reading comprehension skills, you are one rude kid. Now keep quiet while the adults converse.

 

[Cael]

Japanese swordsmanship tends to have less movement of the body. They are more towards strikes and counters while being perfectly balanced. Wuxia is all about leaping and positioning, which I took the BG2 Kensai to be aiming towards with the +2 dodge AC and increased movement speed. Plus, if you have watched wuxia movies, the heroes are always running from one place to another. It is practically a trope in itself in wuxia comics, serials and movies.

Running? More like flying. I was so happy when Red Cliff used a lot of wuxia style camera work but with much less fantastical fighting.

Anyway, I think Kensai was always intended to be more Japanese inflected. They learn Iaijutsu. In the 1st edition Oriental Adventures guide they can turn into bushi if they lose too much honor. Really, every class in OA is Japanese except for the Wu Jen (admittedly, my only exposure to OA was from a Japanese dungeon master who rejiggered some of this stuff for a 2nd edition campaign that didn't turn out that well). The Kensai's AC bonus could just as easily come from parrying and it's not like those guys aren't fast, even if they're more focused on economy of effort. I always saw the Kensai as being like the brilliant fencer in Seven Samurai who poetically gets shot to death at the end.

OA has a lot of Chinese elements thrown in. The Japanese tend to stand out because of the whole clan thing which was very ninja. DnD had a very weird relationship with the Oriental sphere, to be fair. There are a lot of things that were plain hilarious to someone brought up in those cultures.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Rereading your posts on the last page, I stand corrected: you really have no clue what you are talking about. First you had no clue what the sword saint was in the game, then you had no clue what kensai was in Pathfinder. You clearly had not played the game, yet you feel compelled to answer questions about it.

The fact that we are having a conversation that you are interrupting proves that not only do you have zero credibility and lack reading comprehension skills, you are one rude kid. Now keep quiet while the adults converse.

Third time. This is the third time I tried to insert some facts into your gibberish and it always ends the same way. You'd think I'd learn not to bother by now.

 

[ArchAngel]

Rereading your posts on the last page, I stand corrected: you really have no clue what you are talking about. First you had no clue what the sword saint was in the game, then you had no clue what kensai was in Pathfinder. You clearly had not played the game, yet you feel compelled to answer questions about it.

The fact that we are having a conversation that you are interrupting proves that not only do you have zero credibility and lack reading comprehension skills, you are one rude kid. Now keep quiet while the adults converse.

Third time. This is the third time I tried to insert some facts into your gibberish and it always ends the same way. You'd think I'd learn not to bother by now.

I have been telling everyone to ignore Cael on both Pathfinder topics because he is not playing the game but I guess still some of you ignored my advice and had to learn it the hard way :D

 

[Cael]

Rereading your posts on the last page, I stand corrected: you really have no clue what you are talking about. First you had no clue what the sword saint was in the game, then you had no clue what kensai was in Pathfinder. You clearly had not played the game, yet you feel compelled to answer questions about it.

The fact that we are having a conversation that you are interrupting proves that not only do you have zero credibility and lack reading comprehension skills, you are one rude kid. Now keep quiet while the adults converse.

Third time. This is the third time I tried to insert some facts into your gibberish and it always ends the same way. You'd think I'd learn not to bother by now.

What facts? You just make things up and run with it. It is hilarious how you deliberately and creatively interprete things wrong and then try to prosecute a gotcha case because your butt is still hurt from the last time you opened your mouth.

 

[Elex]

Puts another tick against "Owlcat fuckups" column.

Their explanation was basically "there's no asian stuff in this part of the world," and sword saint is a direct translation of the Japanese. One rare case where we know it was a conscious design decision.

I will say that I'm very glad there are no katana or wakizashi floating around in Pathfinder's faux feudal Europe. My barony is no one's co-prosperity sphere.

dueling sword are not-katana.

 

[Zero Credibility]

I have been telling everyone to ignore Cael on both Pathfinder topics because he is not playing the game but I guess still some of you ignored my advice and had to learn it the hard way :D

I really thought he must have played it by now.

 

[Cael]

I have been telling everyone to ignore Cael on both Pathfinder topics because he is not playing the game but I guess still some of you ignored my advice and had to learn it the hard way :D

I really thought he must have played it by now.

You know you have really lost an argument when you start making up stories about someone and try to character assassinate him that way. The butthurt must be enormous for you to be that bitter.

 

[ArchAngel]

I have been telling everyone to ignore Cael on both Pathfinder topics because he is not playing the game but I guess still some of you ignored my advice and had to learn it the hard way :D

I really thought he must have played it by now.

He is same here as in Battletech topic. He was shitposting there as well and not playing or owning the game. He played Battletech tabletop and felt it was important that we read his babblings about anything in the game he didn't play.

 

[Ent]

I didn't think mentioning a bug would lead to this. An interesting morning read nonetheless.