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Pathfinder Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Plus Edition - now with turn-based combat

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Polish really takes a steep nosedive post-Varnholm (and shortly prior), and I'm constantly encountering references to things I haven't seen or experienced. I'm not going to spoil anything, but goddamn, some of these oversights are so damn glaring. Extremely frustrating, considering the quality prior.

Edit:
For more improvements to the game, I also think that taking a daemonic boon should impact your alignment greatly, or maybe have some alternate effect where it starts to turn you slightly more evil or something. I've picked up Lamashtu's Boon and a Daemonic Blessing and I'm still Neutral Good, which seems a bit odd considering the things I did to get those boons. It would be cool if when you get a certain boon or blessing that the deity or herald of the deity visits you in a dream or something, or just shows up demanding something evil, forcing your hand or just talking to you in some way. The more reactivity with those sorts of things would be a great improvement as well, as not many RPGs have that kind of reactivity with your actual skills or blessings you get from deities, or in this case, daemons.
Yeah, it appears that alignment choices, aside from sometimes feeling a bit random, aren't weighted. They all seem to count as much as any other choice, while, as you point out, making a deal with a demonic pact of any kind should shift you a hell of a lot more than stealing some candy. You're literally fueling the cosmic forces of Evil, it's not exactly what someone could call Good.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Why is letting Bartholomew experiment on a troll considered 'lawful evil'?

Trolls are inherently evil, and the purpose of his research is (at face value), good
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
lets speed up the this topic and ask
Was hitler really evil that he wanted to better his people by hurting jews?
cos it will definitely end up there
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,327
I'd consider it closer to experimenting on rats but I already know where this reply is headed.
This is your problem. Trolls are sentient being with intelligence of retarded humans. Kind of like if you made Down syndrome people huge, green and with love for human flesh.
So you need to ask yourself if you consider OK to give experimental drugs to down syndrome people that could hurt them or maybe provide a cure for the rest of humans..
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
rats are sentient, you probably meant sapient.

So you need to ask yourself if you consider OK to give experimental drugs to down syndrome people that could hurt them or maybe provide a cure for the rest of humans..
Is it really evil to say 'yes' to this?
In a dangerous world like pathfinder, there's 1. bound to be a lot of cripples and 2. being crippled is a death sentence.
The utilitarian point of view would be that it's humane to experiment on the trolls.

Also, as a baron it's my job to do what's best for my subjects.
 

Efe

Erudite
Joined
Dec 27, 2015
Messages
2,605
in a world like pathfinder you can regrow limbs no? you just pay the priest
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,327
rats are sentient, you probably meant sapient.

So you need to ask yourself if you consider OK to give experimental drugs to down syndrome people that could hurt them or maybe provide a cure for the rest of humans..
Is it really evil to say 'yes' to this?
In a dangerous world like pathfinder, there's 1. bound to be a lot of cripples and 2. being crippled is a death sentence.
The utilitarian point of view would be that it's humane to experiment on the trolls.

Also, as a baron it's my job to do what's best for my subjects.
I meant whatever, English is not my 1st language :P
But wiki says that in SF word sentience is often used to describe AI that can feel and think like humans, so I probably picked up that word from movies or such.

It is very evil to say yes because where do you pull the line. As soon as you start thinking like this, you can easily keep going. Do old people contribute to society? Not enough, lets kill them early or use them in experiments that will help the young.
You are blind? Good, now you are part of an experiment to help those still with sight.
You are poor and do a common job? Good, lets sacrifice your life to help the rich and important people that are needed to keep doing their important job.
You are perfectly healthy and useful part of society. But you just got into an accident and got injured and now you cannot work for 1 year and you only got 50% chance to recovery full? Nah, you will cost too much, lets use you in experiment to help the others.

Once you start going down this path, you can rationalize many things. And the line can keep moving. You know, cooking a frog slowly...
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,327
in a world like pathfinder you can regrow limbs no? you just pay the priest
High-level priests are rare and shit is expensive, yo.
So will be getting access to regenerative abilities of a troll. At best that wizard can come up with a spell that will for surely have troll parts as material components and who knows what else. That will cost as much or more than a equivalent cleric spell, especially since arcane spells are NOT supposed to have similar healing effects to divine spells at same levels. DM rules for creating new spells are basically guidelines for how spells work in that whole reality. So find a divine spell that regrows limb, and a wizard version will be 1 or 2 levels higher and will have costly components.
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
I have a spoiler-ish question, about something in Chapter 5.
I sided with First Mate Wellar to overthrow Captain Martyn. However, I didn't get a chance to give him the grimoire before doing so. Is it possible to give him Blakemoor's Grimoire :P and also overthrow his command? Because I feel like I may have missed some serious XP by not giving him the grimoire, but I also thought he might pack up and sail away and I wouldn't be able to mutiny him.
Any answers on this one?
 

Deleted Member 16721

Guest
Polish really takes a steep nosedive post-Varnholm (and shortly prior), and I'm constantly encountering references to things I haven't seen or experienced. I'm not going to spoil anything, but goddamn, some of these oversights are so damn glaring. Extremely frustrating, considering the quality prior.

I'm surprised you think that. I'm in Chapter 5 and the quality is excellent, it might be my favorite chapter of the game thus far. The Varnhold chapter was good but things are getting pretty interesting in Chapter 5. No need to spoil anything, but the game to me, keeps getting better and more impressive the further I go. For the record I've played the first 3 chapters and some of Varnhold before patch 1.1 even came out, if that counts for anything. Since 1.1 and the Wildcards DLC I've been having a blast again, looking to finish this game up, at least until April when I do another run through the game (perhaps as an evil character, with all the DLC released then.)
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
in a world like pathfinder you can regrow limbs no? you just pay the priest
High-level priests are rare and shit is expensive, yo.
So will be getting access to regenerative abilities of a troll. At best that wizard can come up with a spell that will for surely have troll parts as material components and who knows what else. That will cost as much or more than a equivalent cleric spell, especially since arcane spells are NOT supposed to have similar healing effects to divine spells at same levels. DM rules for creating new spells are basically guidelines for how spells work in that whole reality. So find a divine spell that regrows limb, and a wizard version will be 1 or 2 levels higher and will have costly components.
That's all meta and mechanics, though, which is a poor position on which to argue the contents of the setting. Circumventing existing issues is precisely what scientists and magicians seek to do, obviously.
 

Anthedon

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jan 1, 2015
Messages
4,792
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I fear I've encountered my first major bug:

The game crashes without fail during one of the Bald Hilltop quests exactly when Boogeyman spawn. An enemy so scary the whole game shuts down.
 

kirin

Learned
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Messages
105
Put the game on hold thinking I would come back to play over Christmas holidays when all the bugs were sorted. Was I too optimistic?
 

ArchAngel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 16, 2015
Messages
21,327
in a world like pathfinder you can regrow limbs no? you just pay the priest
High-level priests are rare and shit is expensive, yo.
So will be getting access to regenerative abilities of a troll. At best that wizard can come up with a spell that will for surely have troll parts as material components and who knows what else. That will cost as much or more than a equivalent cleric spell, especially since arcane spells are NOT supposed to have similar healing effects to divine spells at same levels. DM rules for creating new spells are basically guidelines for how spells work in that whole reality. So find a divine spell that regrows limb, and a wizard version will be 1 or 2 levels higher and will have costly components.
That's all meta and mechanics, though, which is a poor position on which to argue the contents of the setting. Circumventing existing issues is precisely what scientists and magicians seek to do, obviously.
Yes but magic works by certain rules, those rules are how that universe works.
If we follow your thought process what prevents magic users from inventing a lvl 1 wish spell that never fails?
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
Polish really takes a steep nosedive post-Varnholm (and shortly prior), and I'm constantly encountering references to things I haven't seen or experienced. I'm not going to spoil anything, but goddamn, some of these oversights are so damn glaring. Extremely frustrating, considering the quality prior.

I'm surprised you think that. I'm in Chapter 5 and the quality is excellent, it might be my favorite chapter of the game thus far. The Varnhold chapter was good but things are getting pretty interesting in Chapter 5. No need to spoil anything, but the game to me, keeps getting better and more impressive the further I go. For the record I've played the first 3 chapters and some of Varnhold before patch 1.1 even came out, if that counts for anything. Since 1.1 and the Wildcards DLC I've been having a blast again, looking to finish this game up, at least until April when I do another run through the game (perhaps as an evil character, with all the DLC released then.)
I've run into several glaring narrative issues.
Immediately after the Vanishing of Varnhold, two events started, and I had to pick between the two of them. One of these was "Betrayer's Flight", and was presented as a resurgence of The Bloom, centered on Lake Candlemere. Immediately following this, a pop-up of Linzi talks about following a traitor, Tristian, even though nothing has been said even hinting at his involvment. Further, it was made abundantly clear in the during the scene in Vordakai's Tomb that Tristian was somehow being coerced, but everything talks about him being a traitor. Quest updates continue in the same vein, talking about pursuing Tristian, even though nothing within the narrative of the game itself even hints to this.

I chose to go to help against the Barbarians first, and disregarding potential issues of how this plays out (Why would Armag not kill Amiri then and there, why was Amiri's friend even being sacrificed and why can't I even ask about that?), I find myself marching up against their camp with my entire group, knee-deep in the blood of Hill Giants and barbarians. When I reach the camp and start killing the guards at the entrance, the few remaining Brevan soldiers run in, leaving me to kill everyone at the gate. As I step into the camp, everything there is suddenly peaceful, and barbarians are standing around in the exact same way they did during the Amiri section, which is surreal considering the situation. After meeting up with Amiri, her friend and the barbarian dude, Jamandi Aldori shows up, and says that I've achieved the best of victories, a bloodless one.

I'm sorry, did I not wade through a battlefield to get here? Was this some kind of last-minute change to extend the game, them thinking that it would be too cheap/quick to resolve this whole thing peacefully. I then have a choice to speak out as if allying with the Surtova or Aldori - there is a third choice, of bowing before both and telling them that as a third faction, you can act as a guarantee for peace. This is locked behind being Neutral. Any kind of neutral. Chaotic included. Lawful Good need not apply.

Then I went to Candlemere, to resolve The Bloom/Pursue Tristian (which still hasn't been hinted at in any way whatsoever, just outright stated as a fact for.. some reason?). After battling my way through a bunch of meaningless mobs and getting to the top of the tower, I find the portal, the guy that was there earlier is dead, and then a bunch of mobs spawn that I get to kill, and then I'm now pursuing Tristian (which, again, I have no idea how he's even supposed to be involved, because literally nothing has been suggested from the start to have anything to do with him). I hop into the Portal and boom, I find myself in a dungeon.

In this dungeon, there are several hints that something evil was kept there, but nothing really comes of it, although the hints that Armag was raised there is pretty cool. There are several hints that there is something in here turning things to stone. But.. there's nothing there that petrifies. At all. There's petrified mice. Just no petrifier. And then I found a secret room with an alcove full of books, and upon finding it, it talks about the medusa we met in the library.

..I'm sorry, what medusa we met in what library?

And it just sorta continues in the same vein, like the oddity of the Lost Brother.
Really, the writing and narrative consistency just completely shits itself and starts falling apart at the seams the second you leave the Levies. I think they tried to tie multiple plot-lines together and repurpose (or multi-purpose) existing areas and finished content in order to ship the game without literal holes in it. Up until now, I've mostly encountered bugs - annoying, frustrating bugs, but understandable bugs in a game that had no playtesting - not unfinished or haphazardly thrown together content. I think post-Vordakai marks the point where they stopped developing the game and just tried to finish it as soon as possible, giving rise to all these issues.

Which is a damn shame, because while they'll fix bugs later, I've never seen a developer go back and actually fix shit like this, because it would mean changing an established narrative. It just reinforces my belief that the game could've really used another full year in active development.

I don't think any patches are going to fix this.

:negative:
lets speed up the this topic and ask
Was hitler really evil that he wanted to better his people by hurting jews?
cos it will definitely end up there
He didn't want to hurt Jews, he just wanted to his people to live free of them, and encouraged Jews to create their own national state, too, so that they also could live free.

This made a lot of people very angry.
 

Luckmann

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Jul 20, 2009
Messages
3,759
Location
Scandinavia
in a world like pathfinder you can regrow limbs no? you just pay the priest
High-level priests are rare and shit is expensive, yo.
So will be getting access to regenerative abilities of a troll. At best that wizard can come up with a spell that will for surely have troll parts as material components and who knows what else. That will cost as much or more than a equivalent cleric spell, especially since arcane spells are NOT supposed to have similar healing effects to divine spells at same levels. DM rules for creating new spells are basically guidelines for how spells work in that whole reality. So find a divine spell that regrows limb, and a wizard version will be 1 or 2 levels higher and will have costly components.
That's all meta and mechanics, though, which is a poor position on which to argue the contents of the setting. Circumventing existing issues is precisely what scientists and magicians seek to do, obviously.
Yes but magic works by certain rules, those rules are how that universe works.
If we follow your thought process what prevents magic users from inventing a lvl 1 wish spell that never fails?
Yes, there are certain rules, but not in the way you describe it. The rules and mechanics are complete abstractions, and shouldn't be used to rationalize regarding the narrative reality of the setting.

And there is nothing preventing the invention of a lvl 1 wish spell, but more importantly, "level 1" is not applicable other than as an abstraction (sometimes) used by spellcasters within the universe as a means of categorization. In a narrative sense, it's entirely debatable what "level" a spell is, as is the entire system of magic taxonomy and semantics. In a narrative sense, there are absolutely wizards trying to create Wish-type spells that require less expertise or less spellpower to manifest. It's probably how Limited Wish was born to begin with, really.
 

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