KickStarter Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pre-Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Shadenuat]

Well if people who are trying to kill skeletons with negative energy rays or something like that say mages suck it's not much of an issue. Or people who are not used to casters growing slowly. Somehow I doubt any casters in Pathfinder can be bad.

 

[Dodo1610]

Is magic in Pathfinder something everyone can learn or is it something you are born with?

 

[Tacgnol]

Is magic in Pathfinder something everyone can learn or is it something you are born with?

Depends on the mechanism.

Spontaneous casters like sorcerers and oracles (divine caster) are people with talent for magic. Prepared casters like Wizards study hard to learn how to do magic.

 

[Bocian]

That is a problem that many idiots tend to fall into: They buy into the myth that a mechanically sound character somehow detracts from its ability to be roleplayed.

Nailed it, this is a very common problem. For them, the peak of creativity is letting the stats define their character, with all the nonsense it entails.

 

[Safav Hamon]

The narrative designer claims Skyrim has more replayability than Fallout 2

We aim at a high replayability value. Not the Skyrim levels of replayability, but certainly Fallout 2 levels.

 

[Shadenuat]

What's there to replay in Skyrim, you can join any guild and finish it/help any daedra regardless of your affiliations.

 

[Safav Hamon]

There's some replayablity, but not as much as Fallout 2. This is also the guy that has been deleting negative threads on steam.

 

[Cael]

That is a problem that many idiots tend to fall into: They buy into the myth that a mechanically sound character somehow detracts from its ability to be roleplayed.

Nailed it, this is a very common problem. For them, the peak of creativity is letting the stats define their character, with all the nonsense it entails.

Stats, class name, stereotypes. You name it. Yet, ironically, they are the ones who claim they are the creative ones, the ones breaking convention, the real roleplayers.

That is why as DM, I take such pleasure in torturing them via their toons.

 

[Infinitron]

Why don't you post the full quote: https://steamcommunity.com/app/640820/discussions/0/1710690176748999861/#c1710690176749106987

Thanks for a well-thought comparison! Here's some clarifications:

>This seems to be a brand new studio created exclusively to develop this game.

This is a new studio, but it includes some industry veterans. Our creative director is Alexander Mishulin, of Rage of Mages and Silent Storm fame. We also have people like Chris Avellone and Inon Zur on board.

>Available for preorder with the standard edition being $39.99 and multiple other editions that cost more, with certain content being essentially locked behind a pay wall

Actual in-game stuff behind paywall is minor things like a pet or a bonus item. The cheapest tier includes the 100% complete game, while the more expensive tiers add things like the soundtrack and the artbook.

>Plans to release with 14 classes.

Plus 3 archetypes for each class, plus several prestige classes.

>The game is single player. That means once you complete the single player campaign, you probably won't have much else to do, unless they add so much depth to the game that it is actually replayable like Skyrim or something. A multiplayer mode would be greatly appreciated, maybe even a DM mode.

We aim at a high replayability value. Not the Skyrim levels of replayability, but certainly Fallout 2 levels. Trying out different classes, making different choices and playing as different alignments gives you different game experience. You certainly can't see all the content in one playthrough.
As for the DM tools — well, the LSC fiasco was one of the reasons why we didn't waste our limited resources on it. You don't want a bad tool set, and a good one would take away from the game itself.

He's replying to a popamoler who defines Skyrim as the epitome of "replayability" and gently steering him to a more relevant comparison.

(Not that anybody should care about replayability in this day and age.)

 

[Strange Fellow]

Not that anybody should care about replayability in this day and age.

What do you mean, why not?

 

[Lacrymas]

A good game is always replayable, regardless of anything. Anyway, "not the Skyrim levels of replayability" can mean a lot of things and can certainly mean something negative. I also think he's implying it's not the Skyrim kind of replayability. Referencing Fallout 2 to a popamoler won't mean anything to that popamoler, so eh. Btw, is there a list of classes, archetypes and prestige classes the game will ship with somewhere?

 

[Cael]

Not that anybody should care about replayability in this day and age.

What do you mean, why not?

How many times have people replayed games like the Ultima series? How many different classes (I mean real and distinct classes, not just different stat ranges) and ways of completing the game do you think each game in the Ultima series has?

The fact that modern game devs spruik replayability is a good indication of the kind of slop they are offering.

 

[vonAchdorf]

Not that anybody should care about replayability in this day and age.

What do you mean, why not?

Because 90% of the people don't even finish one play-through

 

[Infinitron]

A good game is always replayable, regardless of anything. Anyway, "not the Skyrim levels of replayability" can mean a lot of things and can certainly mean something negative. I also think he's implying it's not the Skyrim kind of replayability. Referencing Fallout 2 to a popamoler won't mean anything to that popamoler, so eh. Btw, is there a list of classes, archetypes and prestige classes the game will ship with somewhere?

https://owlcatgames.com/forums/showthread.php?19-Information-known-about-the-game-so-far

Classes
-The game includes: Alchemist, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Inquisitor, Magus, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorceror and Wizard.
-The Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian all follow rules from Pathfinder Unchained.
-Multiclassing is in the game.
-Prestige Classes are in the Game. Arcane Trickster, Stalwart Defender, Mystic Theurge, and Dragon Disciple are confirmed. Aldori Sword Lord is a maybe, as are some other Prestiges.
-Bards will have access to Bardic masterpieces.
-You can become a Fallen Paladin if your alignment shifts too much.
-Since there is no mounted combat, Paladins will not have access to the Mount Divine Bond.
-Archetypes will be part of the game. There will be three for each class (although some classes may get alternate class features instead or in addition, such as Wild Bloodlines for Sorcerers and Sub-Schools for Wizards). The archetypes and features already in development or in the Beta are:
Alchemist - Vivisectionist, Grenadier, Chiurgeon
Bard - Archaeologist, Flame Dancer, Thunder Caller
Barbarian - Armored Hulk, Mad Dog, Invulnerable Rager
Cleric - Crusader, Herald Caller, Ecclesitheurge
Druid - Blight Druid, Defender of the True World, Feyspeaker
Fighter - Aldori Defender, Tower Shield Specialist, Two-Handed Fighter
Inquisitor - Sacred Huntsman, Monster Tactician, Tactical Leader
Magus - Eldritch Archer, Eldritch Scion, Sword Saint/Kensai
Monk - Scaled Fist, Sensei,
Paladin - Divine Hunter, Divine Guardian, Hospitaler
Ranger - Freebooter, Flame Warden,
Rogue - Eldritch Scoundrel, Knife Master, Thug
Sorcerer - Wild Bloodlines (Empyreal, Sage, and Sylvan) (Regular Bloodlines are: Abyssal, Arcane, Celestial, Draconic, Elemental, Fey, Infernal, Serpentine, and Undead)
Wizard - Arcane Bomber, Thassilonian Specialist.
-Currently the game only has weapon divine bond for paladins, but Owlcat intends to implement the alternative Divine Bond Options in the Healer's Handbook. The Creative Director makes no promises though.
-Druid's Wildshape and Polymorph will be from a predetermined list, though there is the possibility of making some shapes unlockable. Special attacks will follow the rules as closely as possible.

 

[Strange Fellow]

Players don't care about replayability, therefore devs don't care about replayability, therefore players shouldn't care about replayability?

If there's a demand for replayability then devs will take notice. There's no reason not to care about it.

 

[Safav Hamon]

RPGs are defined by their replayability. If you can't replay as many different characters, then it's not truly a roleplaying game.

 

[fantadomat]

Gotta play class because you like the concept, not because it has 1 more point of BAB

You are talking to a person that plays D&D only for the combat. For him the roleplaying is picking the most practical character.

For combat, you go with the most practical character because otherwise, you die, which sorts of puts a huge hole in the idea of playing further with that character in any way shape or form. In other words, in order to roleplay, you have to survive first. There is no point playing a character that is the Stephen Hawking of RP characters only for him to get killed in the first combat.

As for roleplaying, that can be done with ANY character. That is a problem that many idiots tend to fall into: They buy into the myth that a mechanically sound character somehow detracts from its ability to be roleplayed. That a person can be a roleplayer or a rollplayer, but not both. This is, unfortunatey, something that is reinforced by many things around us. The old jocks vs nerd dichotomy, the one between wizards and fighters, etc. A smart jock? Doesn't exist! A good roleplayer that doesn't have an angsty, gimped character? No way!

This becomes a problem when we are discussing things like the paladin, the samurai and the knight in DnD, all of which has subpar abilities and considered weak even when compared to the basic, barebones Fighter. These are all classes that have RP components (duties and obligations) that is specifically spelt out in their class description (again, I must put here that technically ALL divine classes have the same RP components, but most of them tend to be ignored, for some reason). This is actually BAD GAME DESIGN.

If a class requires onerous RP actions (and therefore be pigeonholed into a specific role and/or method of existing, e,g,m the chivalric knight in shining armour), then it must have abilities that make it supremely overpowered because it has something that can be used by the DM or other players in order to destroy that character. In other words, it relies on the good will of others in order to survive, and human nature being human nature, that is something that will be challenged especially in multiplayer games.

The flipside of that is not to have that RP requirement and a class is a collection of abilities and stats and you can make it to be whatever the heck you want it to be. And this is where the RPG makers are moving towards (but haven't quite reached... yet). Again, I blame the mindset of millenial SJW fucks for this because everything "must be equal" and "you can't have an overpowered class! Not fair! Not fair!"

Now, imagine if your Paladin has ALL of the Fighter bonus feats and Fighter only feats. AND on top of that, it has the spell progression of a Knight of the Sword (in the Krynn Gold Box games; the existence of which, hilariously is why if you play a paladin in those games, you are deliberately gimping yourself). And on top of that, it retains all of its special abilities. Would that make it a worthy class to play from start to finish, especially if it is mandated in the class description that they are a venerated class because of their righteousness and sense of honour and justice? I would say far better than the "why bother" mess we have now.

When i DM i don't give a flying fuck for most rules,i see them as a base and suggestions. Do like to design most shit myself depending on the world,in a high magic world i will have different effect on spells and different spells as whole. I do make different types of paladins and skills depending on their gods. I could give special skill that buffs str and hp if the paladin have high wis and cha and is part of its believe.

Also i don't like needlessly killing the players,D&D is mainly about telling stories than killing trash mobs in a dungeon. Still i do fuck them up if they do retarded shit.

 

[Dodo1610]

RPGs are defined by their replayability. If you can't replay as many different characters, then it's not truly a roleplaying game.

But very few replay games. it's a well known fact that most people don't even bother to finish a game once. Of course RPG need C&C and different character builds to make every playthrough as unique as possible. I don't realy get the demand for replayability there are so many games being released every month that i simply do not have the time to replay games.

 

[Safav Hamon]

You're missing the point. In an RPG it shouldn't matter if people replay. What's more important is that someone could replay and have a completely different experience.

I wont replay most games either, but I still care that my builds, dialogue options, and gameplay decisions all feel consequential. That's what makes roleplaying games fun.

 

[Strange Fellow]

It's true that very few people replay games, so it's a bad investment for devs to focus on replayability. Most people also play good characters, so devs shouldn't focus on enabling an evil playthrough. Most players don't care to go off the beaten path, so secrets and side areas are a waste of development time. Most players who chew through games like they were burgers from McDonald's don't care about any of these things.

 

[Lacrymas]

C&C is fundamentally about replaying, you can never sense C&C (or lack thereof) the first time through, except if it's something totally blatant, like choosing something, but the opposite happens anyway. Otherwise, it's never clear whether something is a result of your choices or it's smoke and mirrors and that happens either way. I wouldn't lump character building in with replayability, though, it's more about choosing your playstyle, especially on a first runthrough, but it obviously helps with replayability. Although, I'm willing to bet a lot of people replay the BGs as mages, even though they've played them before as mages, but that's neither here nor there.

 

[ArchAngel]

Since when does 'Dex care what most people do?
Fuck most people.
Good games have good replayability so we can play that again instead of shit that retards outside 'dex do.

 

[imweasel]

RPGs are defined by their replayability.

C&C is fundamentally about replaying

Nope. A good RPG simply attempts to simulate a living and breathing world. This guy explains it very well.

 

[Lacrymas]

We aren't talking about anything other than simulating a believable world, I don't think anybody is talking about the Mass Effect style choices. You still can't pick up on consequences on your first playthrough, except, like I said, if it's blatantly lacking.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Any footage of monk class in action? Curious if they have a lot of unique hand to hand combat animations or if it's just punch, kick.