Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous - Game of the Year Edition

[Yosharian]

Ok, apparently I have to explain it, np

Let's say I have a weapon that has a crit multiplier of 3. That weapon has a crit range of 20. That means that 5% of the time, I get a x3 increase in damage, because 1/20 is 5/100 i.e. 5%.

Compare that to a weapon which has a crit multiplier of 2, but a crit range of 18-20. Like a scimitar. That's a 15% chance to get a x2 increase in damage.

Improved Critical makes this gap wider because the scim goes to 15-20 (6/20, 30%) while the longspear only goes to 19-20 (2/20, 10%).

Let's say my weapon damage is 100. The scim's average extra damage from crits is 0.3x100 = 30 damage (bonus damage from a crit is 100, occurs 30% of the time). The longspear's is 0.1x200 = 20. so the scim wins - even though its multiplier is lower.

You do not need to 'oneshot' enemies if you have Pounce, which you should have otherwise what the fuck are you doing.

You will crit much more often with a 18-20 weapon too, so you will see more things like Outflank going off. Which means things dying faster.

And no, Gendarme capstone works with any weapon. Hell, it even works while unmounted.

 

[FreeKaner]

Desiderius what is some other classes that can do mounted combat well aside from cavalier? I was doing a longspear charge build with order of the sword, it deals a lot of damage on charge (can crit about 200 with demon path by act 3 & level 10) but I want a less charge focused one because I felt I only dealt damage on charge despite being somewhat tanky.

Is sword & board mounted combat good? Not as focused on charge (ofc charging when possible is still good), Seelah on horse seemed really good too. I wonder if there are other alternatives to more staying in melee and dealing damage archetypes (maybe with trample)?

(a) Haplo and Daidre and probably Yosharian have the most powerful Mounted builds. If you play a Mounted MC you can usually set up combat to open with a Charge so that helps you get them in. Haplo uses Travel Domain + Domain Zealot to reposition for additional charges.

(b) Board is unnecessary mounted. You get attacked occasionally but not enough to make it worth it. Seelah's fine mounted but not really playing to her strengths or the strengths of Mounted Combat. Divine Weapon Bond is really good and works well making up for the malus of a Tower and/or Fighting Defensively (she starts with Dodge so one level of Monk can also get her Crane Style as well if you want). I find that Seelah a much more satisfying use of her talents. The item that makes her Smite AC Sacred will let her tank *almost* everything and she can get pretty tanky with the +3 Tower early.

(c) Mounted Daeran in contrast (vis Nature Second Mystery) is just a great fit since it takes care of his Curse and Friend of Animals makes his Mount much more resilient (plus it gives him some good spells)

(d) Mounted Combat Feats can end up very good (especially the Saves one - pretty much mandatory with the Relic that gives Mount +6 STR) but take awhile to get there (there's a +10 Mobility belt at HK camp) so not worth taking early. In TTT you can get full attacks even when Mount moves but it takes 14 ranks in Mobility to unlock.

Urban Hunter, Divine Hound, Mad Dog, Sohei, Sacred Huntmaster, Nomad, and Arcane Rider all have their own quirks but are fun to play. Pets with Trips can set up some nice synergies with riders who have AoOs.

I went demon path so I was using demonic charge for repositioning, but as I said I don't want a charge focused mounted build, which maybe a waste. Specifically because since I got demonic charge I agree that Seelah is better with divine weapon, I just wanted to try her out with a mount (I wasn't using her in my party, Camilia is my go to tank).

Maybe it is a bit futile to try to make a consistent damage frontliner with mounted combat, since so many of your bonuses go towards charge. Mounted combat and indomitable mount are both surprisingly good with how much mobility you can get, trample with several AoOs also sounds good. Maybe with improved crit & mythic improved crit on a 18-20 weapon like scimitar.

Still disappointing that shield is bad, I hate how shields are bad in most RPGs. Don't want to wear a greatsword from back off the horse.

 

[Yosharian]

I could go into more detail on the math such as how critting more often but for less is better because we aren't fighting raid bosses with 10k hp but rather numerous small creatures, so rare & big crits aren't as valuable as the alternative

That said the flat increases to crit range from Trickster feats and the DLC belt do a lot to even out the balance between these weapons. Scythe could actually be the most powerful weapon for a Trickster. But then again, Grave Singer exists.

 

[Humbaba]

Didn't happen to me

Cap or playing on something below core.

longspear has a crit range of 20 do i really have to explain why this weapon is bad?

Not as relevant if you're building on vital strike and attack only once per round anyway tbf.

 

[FreeKaner]

Ok, apparently I have to explain it, np

Let's say I have a weapon that has a crit multiplier of 3. That weapon has a crit range of 20. That means that 5% of the time, I get a x3 increase in damage, because 1/20 is 5/100 i.e. 5%.

Compare that to a weapon which has a crit multiplier of 2, but a crit range of 18-20. Like a scimitar. That's a 15% chance to get a x2 increase in damage.

Improved Critical makes this gap wider because the scim goes to 15-20 (6/20, 30%) while the longspear only goes to 19-20 (2/20, 10%).

Let's say my weapon damage is 100. The scim's average extra damage from crits is 0.3x100 = 30 damage (bonus damage from a crit is 100, occurs 30% of the time). The longspear's is 0.1x200 = 20. so the scim wins - even though its multiplier is lower.

You do not need to 'oneshot' enemies if you have Pounce, which you should have otherwise what the fuck are you doing.

You will crit much more often with a 18-20 weapon too, so you will see more things like Outflank going off. Which means things dying faster.

And no, Gendarme capstone works with any weapon. Hell, it even works while unmounted.

You don't have to explain basic math to me, I understand 18-20 crit range weapon with 2x is more "DPS" than a 20 crit range 3x. I am not going for the DPS but the burst for oneshots with multiplier because I like seeing 200-300 damage over enemy's head as early as level 8. Particularly in RTWP the tempo of being able to instantly take out particular enemies can matter, tempo is a thing not just DPS. I already explained this in the post you are responding to.

I don't get pounce because I am not going to play a fox or whatever, I am not playing to abuse pathfinder's dips and race combos which is easier to do than trying to make things work without being a degenerate about it.

 

[Yosharian]

I don't have to explain math but you aren't using a Skald, ok buddy

Complain about your damage not being high enough but then arbitrarily set weird restrictions on yourself, hmm ok

Longspear will never be a great weapon, it's just average, not that it matters because mounted combat is hilariously OP no matter what you use

 

[Yosharian]

Glaives on the other hand are straight fucking fire, there are some really nice glaives in the game and you get free weapon training for the weapon type from a book which is just bonkers. (Edit: ok apparently it's not 'real' weapon training which is disappointing, it's just +1 to AB Untyped)

Death Pact

Glaive

This +5 unholy glaive deals additional 6d6 unholy damage on a successful charge. If this charge results in a killing blow, it summons one CR 19 gallu to fight alongside you for 1 minute.

This one is funny as fuck, the unholy damage is completely unresistable and the Gallu it summons is quite tanky and great for distracting the enemy. And you can get a bunch of them. I wonder if they are affected by summon feats, probably not worth it though.

Mutilated Angel

Glaive

This weapon is a +5 adamantine glaive. Whenever the wielder uses it to attack an evil creature, it grants a +5 bonus to the attack roll, and deals additionally 1d12 slashing damage on hit. Whenever this weapon lands a hit, it inflicts a -1 penalty to AC until the end of combat. This penalty stacks up to -5. The wielder takes a -3 penalty to their Charisma ability score.

Casual +5 to hit on almost every creature in the game lmao.

If Daidre hadn't made me really paranoid about the effectiveness of reach builds I would probably get my Skald using one of these. Although I guess the weapon training book only works on the MC so bleh.

 

[Humbaba]

I like longspears.

 

[FreeKaner]

Didn't happen to me

Cap or playing on something below core.

longspear has a crit range of 20 do i really have to explain why this weapon is bad?

Not as relevant if you're building on vital strike and attack only once per round anyway tbf.

I am playing on core, have never played on anything but core. I do get dismounted occasionally but it is rare enough. At start of act 3 right now, killed all side bosses etc. (zacharius, incubus, blightmaw), just did a random encounter with those big toad monsters that do aoe prone too and even there I didn't get dismounted much. I also beat the ghosts in ashberry hamlet which has a reflex save, what I did there was bait the the pit with horse, then as it finished casting demonic charge away and charge and kill the ghost. I struggled with some fights because of playing with no arcane caster.

Not sure what you want cap of? Here is what my character looks like nothing fancy, single class cavalier:

I really like how they made stat belts rarer with some update. So far the only str + dex belt I found was from that incubus side boss and dex constutiton from Staunton.

 

[Yosharian]

What armor is that? looks fucking awesome

 

[FreeKaner]

I don't have to explain math but you aren't using a Skald, ok buddy

Complain about your damage not being high enough but then arbitrarily set weird restrictions on yourself, hmm ok

Longspear will never be a great weapon, it's just average, not that it matters because mounted combat is hilariously OP no matter what you use

My damage is high when I am charging around, as stated I don't want to do that and I wouldn't use a 20 range 3x weapon if I was playing for something more consistent. I won't ever put a dip into skald, vivi, be a tiefling or kitsune or whatever for natural attacks, pounce whatever it is. I only do dips and races that make sense.

 

[FreeKaner]

What armor is that? looks fucking awesome

Flowing scales, you buy it from army camp at act 2. It is not great but yeah looks really good.

 

[Humbaba]

Didn't happen to me

Cap or playing on something below core.

longspear has a crit range of 20 do i really have to explain why this weapon is bad?

Not as relevant if you're building on vital strike and attack only once per round anyway tbf.

I am playing on core, have never played on anything but core. I do get dismounted occasionally but it is rare enough. At start of act 3 right now,

Oh that's it, you're not far enough into the game yet to get unhorsed regularly. Close though. Have fun with that!

 

[Yosharian]

Whut. I wasn't saying dip Skald. I mean bring a Skald along in your party. Best support class in the game for martials.

 

[Yosharian]

Also, I really want to make a team of martials that uses no spellcasters whatsoever after I learned that the magic immunity mythic ability is a fucking toggle, lmao.

That will probably be my next project once I've finished the Aeon party.

Ironically Aeon itself is the best path for this concept because its path spells ignore the ability, but I'll use a different path I think - maybe Demon. More of a challenge that way. Or Trickster? I guess the Imp Imp Crit feats could work. Actually, yes. Trickster Legend magic immunity party. That sounds hilarious.

 

[Humbaba]

It's toggle because it also dispels all your buffs, so it's shit actually.

 

[FreeKaner]

Oh that's it, you're not far enough into the game yet to get unhorsed regularly. Close though. Have fun with that!

I have played the game only near the end of act 3, since it used to be a mess. Only going to do a full run now. Prone is bad, of course because of AoOs, but it is not any worse for mounted combat than anything else, if anything it is better because you can use your own mobility check to avoid it for your horse which can prone or keep dealing damage. I am not sure if I will continue it with this character however since I am getting bored of the demonic charge into charge playstyle.

Whut. I wasn't saying dip Skald. I mean bring a Skald along in your party. Best support class in the game for martials.

You need a custom character? I may do it later, I like playing with companions till act 3.

Also, I really want to make a team of martials that uses no spellcasters whatsoever after I learned that the magic immunity mythic ability is a fucking toggle, lmao.

That will probably be my next project once I've finished the Aeon party.

Ironically Aeon itself is the best path for this concept because its path spells ignore the ability, but I'll use a different path I think - maybe Demon. More of a challenge that way.

Does demonic rage get dispelled? I liked doing a no arcane caster run, it is surprisingly good when your characters get to actual all attack (alpha strike and oracle buffs) but some of the encounters are really designed around you having AoE CC that targets reflex because of enemies that just deal too much damage per round. Particularly no blur/displacement and no haste puts you so behind.

 

[Yosharian]

I haven't tested what gets dispelled or not dispelled yet. Too busy trying to finish my Aeon party.

Also having no buffs doesn't necessarily mean that you can't bring an offensive caster I guess

 

[Cyberarmy]

Desiderius what is some other classes that can do mounted combat well aside from cavalier? I was doing a longspear charge build with order of the sword, it deals a lot of damage on charge (can crit about 200 with demon path by act 3 & level 10) but I want a less charge focused one because I felt I only dealt damage on charge despite being somewhat tanky.

Is sword & board mounted combat good? Not as focused on charge (ofc charging when possible is still good), Seelah on horse seemed really good too. I wonder if there are other alternatives to more staying in melee and dealing damage archetypes (maybe with trample)?

I finished the game on my first ride as an Azata mad dog shield basher,riding my lovely Smilodon. You just need a good crit range weapon(scimitars rule) and pounce from rage powers. Finished on core without much trouble and Azata's most powers were weak and useless and mounting had more bugs back then.

Spoiler

This was only the first hit of many attacks, by late act 4 and act 5 my MC mostly clear enemies in 1 charge attack.

Edit: Also as you can see I wasn't even using my barbarian rage :D

 

[FreeKaner]

Desiderius what is some other classes that can do mounted combat well aside from cavalier? I was doing a longspear charge build with order of the sword, it deals a lot of damage on charge (can crit about 200 with demon path by act 3 & level 10) but I want a less charge focused one because I felt I only dealt damage on charge despite being somewhat tanky.

Is sword & board mounted combat good? Not as focused on charge (ofc charging when possible is still good), Seelah on horse seemed really good too. I wonder if there are other alternatives to more staying in melee and dealing damage archetypes (maybe with trample)?

I finished the game on my first ride as an Azata mad dog shield basher,riding my lovely Smilodon. You just need a good crit range weapon(scimitars rule) and pounce from rage powers. Finished on core without much trouble and Azata's most powers were weak and useless and mounting had more bugs back then.

Spoiler

You are right, how did I forget shield bash. I was even making a shield bash build on foot. Can get so many iterative attacks.

Did you do it as STR or Dex? Dex build sounds great for it but maybe a little too feat heavy.

 

[razvedchiki]

Didn't happen to me

Cap or playing on something below core.

longspear has a crit range of 20 do i really have to explain why this weapon is bad?

Not as relevant if you're building on vital strike and attack only once per round anyway tbf.

I am playing on core, have never played on anything but core. I do get dismounted occasionally but it is rare enough. At start of act 3 right now, killed all side bosses etc. (zacharius, incubus, blightmaw), just did a random encounter with those big toad monsters that do aoe prone too and even there I didn't get dismounted much. I also beat the ghosts in ashberry hamlet which has a reflex save, what I did there was bait the the pit with horse, then as it finished casting demonic charge away and charge and kill the ghost. I struggled with some fights because of playing with no arcane caster.

Not sure what you want cap of? Here is what my character looks like nothing fancy, single class cavalier:

I really like how they made stat belts rarer with some update. So far the only str + dex belt I found was from that incubus side boss and dex constutiton from Staunton.

a ghulam fighting saitans!
does mounted combat work ok indoors?

 

[Cyberarmy]

Desiderius what is some other classes that can do mounted combat well aside from cavalier? I was doing a longspear charge build with order of the sword, it deals a lot of damage on charge (can crit about 200 with demon path by act 3 & level 10) but I want a less charge focused one because I felt I only dealt damage on charge despite being somewhat tanky.

Is sword & board mounted combat good? Not as focused on charge (ofc charging when possible is still good), Seelah on horse seemed really good too. I wonder if there are other alternatives to more staying in melee and dealing damage archetypes (maybe with trample)?

I finished the game on my first ride as an Azata mad dog shield basher,riding my lovely Smilodon. You just need a good crit range weapon(scimitars rule) and pounce from rage powers. Finished on core without much trouble and Azata's most powers were weak and useless and mounting had more bugs back then.

Spoiler

You are right, how did I forget shield bash. I was even making a shield bash build on foot. Can get so many iterative attacks.

Did you do it as STR or Dex? Dex build sounds great for it but maybe a little too feat heavy.

Full STR, used DEX belts for picking up two weapon fightning traits.

 

[FreeKaner]

a ghulam fighting saitans!
does mounted combat work ok indoors?

Was thinking more Tamerlane than Ghulams but that works too.

Mounted combat works okay indoors, but depends a bit on indoors, it is terrible at tight corridors where you can't angle for charges but you still essentially have an animal companion to fight in melee with.

 

[Cyberarmy]

does mounted combat work ok indoors?

Works OK most of the time if there is one mounted character and other "frontliners" have means of attacking from behind that char. 2 med/large sized pets in doors is a bit chaotiic indoors of Wrath.

 

[Yosharian]

Shield Bash is OP as fuck and totally munchkin, FreeKaner confirmed for disgusting min-maxer.

Robe of the Seven Sins

If the wearer of this robe is a spellcaster, their caster level is increased by 3, the save DC against all their spells is increased by 1, and they gain a +5 competence bonus on caster level checks to overcome spell resistance.

The Treasure of the Midnight Isles every turn.

I didn't think you could obtain this in the main game since it isn't listed as one of the items you can get from the Midnight Isles, but CRPGBro is recommending it as an item for Nenio. Is he talking out of his ass or can you actually obtain this?