Pathfinder Pathfinder: Wrath of the Righteous Pre-DLC Thread [GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Efe]

a carbon copy of homm3 would suck balls.
imagine playing homm3 on same map with same random seed over and over again.

 

[Nikanuur]

Omigosh, omigosh, omigosh teh Leopard tripmaster does it again. 11th level has tripped 59th level Mephistopheles. I expect Golarion trembling from all the laughing at Hell anytime now.

 

[ArchAngel]

Eh they just needed to make him flying so to be immune to trips :D

 

[Humbaba]

a carbon copy of homm3 would suck balls.
imagine playing homm3 on same map with same random seed over and over again.

It would still be leagues above the cheap HoMM3 knockoff on the same map with the same seed we have right now.

 

[Sergiu64]

So people still recommend tripping pets vs Raptors? I find it hard to give up on the crazy amount of attacks that raptors get.

 

[Nikanuur]

So people still recommend tripping pets vs Raptors? I find it hard to give up on the crazy amount of attacks that raptors get.

I think the Trip feat could be described as rather situational. Raptors having insane number of attacks are very likely better. I have Leopard for situations like the one above - it's just fun. Also, I happen to like cats, so that's all there is to it if you ask me :3

 

[Haplo]

But raptor's attacks are relatively weak. Not sure they are that great - unless you can stack some serious bonuses on top of them.
A smilodon's should be more damaging, I think?

 

[Parabalus]

But something being tripped triggers >10 AoOs in a melee party, usually better than a few pet attacks.

 

[Nikanuur]

But something being tripped triggers >10 AoOs in a melee party, usually better than a few pet attacks.

I'd say so too, but I think all these things really depend on how people wish to experience the game (and its combat). Pure highest damage outcome towards a single enemy is just one the approaches. Having an enlarged-shredder-cleave-Raptor must be fun as heck in populated fights :3

 

[Sergiu64]

But raptor's attacks are relatively weak. Not sure they are that great - unless you can stack some serious bonuses on top of them.
A smilodon's should be more damaging, I think?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RkGdaBiwMP10YCgfl2eriVtg_EXoWLzM/edit#gid=304030618

Seems like Smilos do about 3 damage more per hit and have 10% higher chance of hitting if the Attack Bonus is relevant. But they only do 5 full bab attacks while raptors do 4 full bab attacks, 2 -5 atk attacks and 2 more -10 atk attacks. Considering they're all getting buffed with Brown Fur Bull's Strength, Animal Growth and Greater Magic Fang - the damage difference per hit is going to be trivial compared to the amount of attacks. Unless they're having trouble landing hits with -5 and -10 attacks that is.

A plus for the Smilos is that they're large - preventing the need to shrink riders.

 

[Yosharian]

I'm surprised you are able to trip anything in this game considering how CMDs scale, I assume it's Core difficulty or lower

 

[Humbaba]

Come to think of it, why isn't Mephistopheles immune to trip? Are his wings fake? Why isn't he just otherwise immune? How many other bosses are trippable?

 

[Haplo]

Perhaps same as Melazmera dragon. Or Jabberwocky from Kingmaker. Theoretically immune, but they still fall down and trigger AoOs.

 

[Humbaba]

są

There's something stuck on your a there, Haplowicz.

 

[Riel]

Honestly I think the Crusade mode is weak and uninteresting so I just play it on casual, I just spam common sense buildings and create 2-3 armies that can easily do anything with all the extra recruits from casual mode without trivializing it so much that just clicking to move an army is a chore, like with the auto win mod. That way I can easily clear any army on the way while keeping a resemblance of being playing a game.

But to be honest, and while this a whole different and broader topic, the build porn of Wrath is great, but game by game Kingmaker was a lot better in general than Wrath, I honestly think these Russians started copying the bad habits of western developers. Wrath is great game but the decline is in Owlcat's home!

 

[Humbaba]

Ascension ending is GET. Azata is a good path, narratively a bit thin but a blast mechanically.

For posterity, full spoilers, tips on the final boss and characters' fate below, minus Lann (RIP) and Camellia, may she rot in hell forever. Played in RTWP.

Spoiler

You still get to do round 1 with Areelu as usual and it is still as swingy as ever. The important thing is to make it out the fight with as little damage as possible and that depends entirely on which spells she manages to get off. If she casts polar midnight, then that's a failed run because there's no way you can effectively go on fighting with DEX damage up the ass. Another one to look out for is prismatic spray, though that one she casts relatively rarely. If she polymorphs or finger of deaths someone important, it's over. I recommend bringing along rings of evasion, of which I managed to collect 4, to counteract clashing rocks spam and tsunami, but that one too she does not seem to cast that often. Have your cleric spam mass heal, that goes without saying.

If you succeed the Arcana check beforehand you can then call out her suicide ploy with a DC50 persuasion check to skip phase 2 but this will not lead to the ascension ending. Don't make the same mistake I did. Got the regular azata ending instead, where my guy an heros himself. Makes Aivu sad. Terrible ending.

Instead you have to pick the option (the second one) to tell Areelu "I'm no failed experiment, check this out..." and then you recount all the important stuff you had to do to for the ascension option. She gets convinced that, in one way or another, you are her child (I suppose you are, being her creation and her allegedly watching over you since birth and all, maybe nephew/niece would be more apt) and that as a favour to you she is willing to kill herself to close the Worldwound. Don't let her do that though and tell her you want to work with her, so she too can live. Then you lay out all your research and tell her that she as the new archpriestess of both Deskari and Baphomet can summon them both, in order to be killed. The dumb bint then gives you no time to heal or prepare and summons both goat and bug at the same time. One of the brightest minds in the history of Golarion, ladies and gentlemen.

She at least has the common courtesy to join you in your fight. Whichever demon lord she chooses to target, you target the other one, because Areelu is fine on her own. Deskari and Baphomet however still seem to aggro onto your party, so you can forget her tanking for you. In retrospect, I recommend always going after Deskari first, because with his swarm infest and damage output he is by far more dangerous. You can have your animal companion, Aivu or your archers keep Baphomet busy. I didn't pay too much attention to him but he seems to cast some randoms debuffs and a couple of damaging spells but compared to Deskari he is a pushover. Areelu killed him on her own, with some help from Wenduag and Arushalae. Speaking of which, don't forget to midnight bolt both lords if you want the full ascension ending. YOU HAVE TO PICK UP THE CRYSTALS DURING COMBAT, YOU DO NOT GET THE CHANCE TO PICK THEM UP AFTER. THEY DROP ON EITHER A BIG BROKEN PILLAR ON THE LEFT OR THE RIGHT DEPENDING WHERE DESKARI OR BAPHOMET HAPPEN TO BE WHEN THE BOLT HITS THEM.

After they're dead, you and all companions (not just your active party) ascend with Areelu if you have all 6 crystals, which she fuses into a single big one. Notable ending slides are as follows:

1. The PC, Areelu and everyone else become DEMIGODS, not full gods.

2. The Worldwound remains open.

3. PC absorbs the realms of Deskari and Baphomet. No further details given that are based on class, religion or anything. Your headcanon will have to do the work. A bit lazy tbh.

4. Upon hearing of Baphomet's death, Asmodeus "chuckles".

5. Deskari's boys are absorbed into the cult of Pazuzu, Deskari's dad.

6. Nocticula does not become the Redeemer Queen, even if you did everything right with Ember's quest. Instead she seeks to profit from the power shift in the Abyss.

7. Seelah hangs out with Cayden, Chaldira and Iomedea and remains a boring character. She does good deeds too or something idc.

8. Wenduag becomes the patron of edgy hunters and continues to hunt cosmic monsters herself, almost dying in the process everytime but getting ever stronger. Continues to bang the PC if in a romance.

9. Ember learns to understand the difficulties of being divine and moves in with her grandma Andoletta in order to learn how to help people more efficiently.

10. Nenio pulls bullshit experiments on humanity out of curiosity, like putting dead mice in women's beds to find out how many of them will be freaked out about it, or stealing two opposing armies' weapons to see what happens. They make peace.

11. Daeran becomes the most popular associate of the Commander in the Commander's cult's canon because he is just so damn handsome. Swears to not answer a single prayer and never does.

12. Woljif follows the PC around, steals shit and busts tieflings out of prison.

13. Sosiel hangs out with Shelyn, becomes the "Soldier's Angel", heals soldiers on the battlefield, who wear his merch for good fortune.

14. Trever retires to Elysium and swears to never use a weapon again unless the PC or Sosiel ask him to.

15. Regill (who apparently had been fighting demons for 500 years, making him fucking OLD) proceeds to ponder the final solution to the abyssal question and is respected by all devils. Finds Hell's discipline "lacking".

16. Greybor retires because there's no one worth killing anymore, founds a cult called the "Backstreet Boys Wardens", who are all about being street thugs and assassins with a code. The mafia, more or less.

17. Arushalae meets Desna, becomes angel of redemption and helps people out.

Areelu and you still stand before Pharasma. Areelu apparently learned the importance of spending time with loved ones and tells Pharasma to eat shit, because now we immortal babyyyyy. Pharasma says that Areelu is still in her boneyard and can do whatever she wants with her, at which point the PC can intervene and tell Pharasma to eat shit as well. Both PC and Areelu then fuck off, their combined powers allegedly rivalling Pharamsa. I assume if you don't intervene, Areelu still gets judged but I can't confirm that.

I think I have one more playthrough left in me, namely the Swarm playthrough, where I will do all the bastard things. That means, corrupting Aru, Woljif, being mean to Ember and worst of all, romancing Camellia. I have looked into how her romance goes. Ending up with the one person in the world that is even worse than her and getting nibbled to death by bugs will be a fitting conclusion to her character.

Will transition into Swarm from Trickster. Seems like the only transition that makes sense from a roleplaying perspective. Thinking about rolling a Grenadier for this one. I won't be getting much out of the sneak attack bonuses, but when I go Swarm I lose all previous path specific stuff anyway afaik. Having swarm clones blast everyone with a battery of bombs sounds fun.

Seeing as the upcoming patch contains changes to both Trickster and Swarm, I will hold off on that particular playthrough until it is out of beta and then I'm probably done with the game. Maybe I'll do Aeon or Demon in the future, I hear those have some good storylines. I'll try Solasta in the meantime.

 

[Nikanuur]

Honestly I think the Crusade mode is weak and uninteresting so I just play it on casual, I just spam common sense buildings and create 2-3 armies that can easily do anything with all the extra recruits from casual mode without trivializing it so much that just clicking to move an army is a chore, like with the auto win mod. That way I can easily clear any army on the way while keeping a resemblance of being playing a game.

But to be honest, and while this a whole different and broader topic, the build porn of Wrath is great, but game by game Kingmaker was a lot better in general than Wrath, I honestly think these Russians started copying the bad habits of western developers. Wrath is great game but the decline is in Owlcat's home!

Good topic. The semi-tunnel approach to most of the maps plagues this game. Many locations deserved several times more complex an approach. More NPC's intertwined, the neighbouring areas maps tied to the central area, lore-based discoveries assisting in solving the three main quests in that area etc.

Spoiler

Take the quest with the sword in the Ivory Labyrinth for example. You are told that there is a sword you can find and bring it back to the apparition NPC to lay it to rest (possibly geting a reward too). You just find the sword on the first creature three rooms next to the apparition. That's it. Nothing like gathering bits of info where the sword might be, depending on whom you kill the sword would be hidden, lost, or on somebody else, or even destroyed. That it could become cursed if you took it by force, or sainted if you had won it by diplomacy, or that you could use it to cleanse the heart of the Angel saving him etc... Nada. Just kill the creature and bring back the sword or screw the apparition NPC and keep the sword. Meh.

Next example. Crazy druid close to the village. You meet a crazy druid. You can leave him be or kill him (wow, you've a choice here actually, gooood D Later on, you can get back, and sort of capture the druid with an NPC from Drezen. That's it. Where's the story of the druid tied to the evil that's lurking within the village? Where's looking for the druid's cave and finding his diary, allowing you to bring the druid back to sanity IF you also have a spell/scroll (dialogue use) or a healer in the party? The Druid would then help you to reason with the insane Mayor, and together you'd banish the evil Entity. Possibly after two more little errands (I need some special herbs, kill the monsters that lurk close to my herb-grove aka different map on the world, go search for it...).
...four more approaches to this quest depending on how you did on 2 more maps closely tied to the village... Depending on how you've listened to what the villagers say. Depending on whether you've helped the poor Deirdre to get in terms with her deceased lover or not etc.... No, this game presents you the village-where-something's-not-quite-right, and the next thing you know, you are fighting the Evil Entity without even much talking to anybody. This is an appaling approach to RPG setting. The game should at the very least DENY you the possibility of barging inside the Mayor's hall prior to your party building up a reputation inside the village or some such. For example: Help three villagers, one is a tricky one. Mayor would possibly grant you an audience, or meet you at the centre of the village - if you've done the tricky villager mini-quest. And even then you'd not be able to continue the main village-quest-line; you'd first need to go back to the mad druid stuff first.

P:K and WoTR doe these things quite scarcely. There are some great exceptions like Alushynirra, or the Market Square at Kenabres, or even the Temple of the Good Hunt. But all in all, the late Baldur's Gates or, heck, even IWDs did this far better as far as most of the maps are concerned. That's quite sad because a complex branching means geographical, story-wise, NPC-wise, dialogue-wise, lore-wise. It's the year 2022, we've had 60 years of development for Oghma's sake! Owlcat knows mostly how to branch quests from the dialogues and the combat, and that's all

PS: This wasn't meant to shun WoTR and P:K altogether. These games excel in other areas: the sheer build possibilities, the atmosphere, the writing (albeit at times needlessly long and cringy) can be pretty good. The mythic replayability is cool. Itemisation is alright, quests outcomes often depend on the decisions.

 

[Elzair]

I am about to start a play through. Is a Wizard PC good enough? I tried a Paladin a month or so, and my party kept getting wiped by the Prologue boss on Core Rules.

 

[The_Mask]

Is a Wizard PC good enough?

I guess it depends on the wizard. And depends on what path you want to take that wizard on.

 

[Yosharian]

I am about to start a play through. Is a Wizard PC good enough? I tried a Paladin a month or so, and my party kept getting wiped by the Prologue boss on Core Rules.

You got wiped on Core with a Paladin?

 

[Haplo]

But raptor's attacks are relatively weak. Not sure they are that great - unless you can stack some serious bonuses on top of them.
A smilodon's should be more damaging, I think?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RkGdaBiwMP10YCgfl2eriVtg_EXoWLzM/edit#gid=304030618

Seems like Smilos do about 3 damage more per hit and have 10% higher chance of hitting if the Attack Bonus is relevant. But they only do 5 full bab attacks while raptors do 4 full bab attacks, 2 -5 atk attacks and 2 more -10 atk attacks. Considering they're all getting buffed with Brown Fur Bull's Strength, Animal Growth and Greater Magic Fang - the damage difference per hit is going to be trivial compared to the amount of attacks. Unless they're having trouble landing hits with -5 and -10 attacks that is.

A plus for the Smilos is that they're large - preventing the need to shrink riders.

Thank you for the information.
I'd say that yes, ACs have trouble hitting after the early levels.
Actually when they are not charging, they often can only get a single attack (and need pounce to have multiple attacks when charging - admittedly the raptor gets it). One of the reasons I rather like the horse as a mount. It may only get only 3 attacks, but they are pretty strong. Although the more important part of my AC choice is being able to mount enlarged.

 

[Nikanuur]

I am about to start a play through. Is a Wizard PC good enough? I tried a Paladin a month or so, and my party kept getting wiped by the Prologue boss on Core Rules.

Mid and late-game, on Core and lower difficulties, it doesn't matter that much what you've chosen, or even if you've made some build errors. It's really just that long beginning you need to be "worried" about.

So, you should choose an Alchemist and come back here for an emotional support from the fellow RPGyists, once you find out that those 10 initial hours at Kenabres were a total drag. Also, if you forget or somehow ommit that one thing at the crucial moment, another 10 play hours would be the same

Haha. Ok, fun aside. I'd advise against taking a Paladin, Seelah's a decent one, and you get her right from the start. If need be, rather take a multiclass somewhere along Fighter, Cleric, Druid etc. to have an access to a real array of healing / support spells, not just a few. But then again, you'll be presented with just that later on... just saying. I don't know what you like to play.

There's always enough shooters, healers and thieves (with an exception of geting a proper healer a bit later, not from the very beginning). Mages are a tad trickier topic in this game, but you'll get enough of magic mayhem later, so don't worry. There's always another space for another Mage/Kinetic/Alchemist though, if that's your porte, spells are very useful and strong.

That being said, my advice is that you can't go wrong with a simple approach. A sturdier melee char such as Barbarian, Fighter, higher Constitution Maguse / Bloodrager. It's because the melee chars in WoTR are either fancy, or tricky or glass-cannons, so there's a chance you won't like any of them. That would leave Seelah the only one, and that is not enough. Also you might wanna add in the animal companion (multiclassing into Hunter / Druid / Ranger etc.), these can be pretty strong in Pathfinder, and are basically another decent fighter in the group.

 

[Cryomancer]

Is a Wizard PC good enough?

Depends. Which MP you will follow? For low levels, I suggest using more party supporting spells and ocasionally CC like grease and sleep over blasting spells, but I've only played this game as a Wizard.

 

[razvedchiki]

I am about to start a play through. Is a Wizard PC good enough? I tried a Paladin a month or so, and my party kept getting wiped by the Prologue boss on Core Rules.

more than enough, later on you will get abilities that will double your per day spells.

 

[LannTheStupid]